Honda Twins banner

Topping out at 35 MPH

1 reading
7.4K views 50 replies 11 participants last post by  longdistancerider  
#1 · (Edited)
So, I recently bought a 1985 Honda CB450SC for my first bike. Right now it tops out at about 35 mph in third gear, but it wasn't running at all when I got it. I intentionally bought a bike that I would need to get my hands into, and knew I was taking a risk buying a bike that wasn't running at the time I bought it (but it sure was cheap though). I'm just hoping I'm not in over my head.

The carbs weren't getting any fuel and did not appear to have a functional vacuum, because the vacuum operated fuel valve would not open when attempting to start the bike. Also, the vacuum piston within the left carb was stuck in its housing, the pilot screws were completely shut, and it was just not assembled correctly overall. I took apart the carbs, gave them a good clean, replaced both of the air cutoff diaphragms (which were torn), cleaned and polished the vacuum pistons (so now they actuate as they should), and reassembled it properly (I'm pretty sure..). I also replaced the stock vacuum fuel valve for a manual one, and capped the vacuum port on the carburetor so it would not leak, as well as cleaned the air filter.

Charged the battery, let some fuel into the carbs, and after a few tries the bike started up.

However, when I ride it, it doesn't seem like there is a lot of torque, and it gets worse each time I move into a higher gear. I can only gain speed in first and second gear. The fastest I can get it to go is 35 mph, and even if I open the throttle as far as it will go in first and second gear, the RPM's and speed of the bike only slowly rise. Then once I shift to 3rd, it just hovers around 5,000 RPM's and 35 mph even with the throttle fully open. If I go to 4th gear, I will just start slowly losing speed and RPM's.

Any ideas as to what is wrong?
 
#28 · (Edited)
Is the engine oily between the big fins and smaller fins?
Is it coming from your valve cover?
Can you clean it up and spot where it's coming from?
Your valve clearances may be all wacky now, but you might be on the wrong stroke when adjusting the left side. Try rotating 360 degrees and seeing if you can adjust more to spec.

Edit: see attached. Compression stroke. That would be the stroke right after your intake valve opens/closes.

Edit #2: you realize you adjust the valves for the left side, then rotate the engine, and then do the right side. You don't do both sides at the same time.
 

Attachments

#29 ·
It sounds to me like it's only running on the right cylinder. (the one with 135 psi) That head will have to come off to check that left exhaust valve. (and any damage) I am picturing the valve stem going up and down without a valve head attached.
 
#30 ·
It looks like the the oil is coming both from the head cover and the head gasket.

The valve clearances are correct, I made sure I was on the compression stroke, did the left side, rotated 180 degrees, and did the right. Turns out the exhaust valve is broken (pic link below) which is why it could not be adjusted accurately. I decided to go ahead and start taking apart the engine, but the cylinder head bolts must've been put on with the force of God (as opposed to the recommended 22-24 ft-lbs). The amount of force it took to loosen those bolts was substantial, but once loose all except two of them were pretty easily removed. Unfortunately, those two that did not come out broke in the process (picture linked below), so now there's that to deal with.

https://imgur.com/a/tiGDL

Any recommendations for getting those rusted/broken screws out?
 
#31 ·
Having trouble with the pictures loading, you might want to post them here directly instead of using a 3rd party program
How much of the head bolts are standing above the deck surface? Hopefully enough that you will be able to grab it with a stud extractor like this http://www.autozone.com/loan-a-tool...-a-tools/stud-remover-set/oem-metric-stud-remover-set/391371_0_0/?checkfit=true Do not attempt using one of these Vermont American Screw Extractor and Drill Bit Set-21829 - The Home Depot because it will break inside the bolt if you can even manage to get the pilot hole centered.
You need to soak the bolt with PB Blaster and let it sit, repeat every 12 hours for 2-3 days. Before working on removal tape all of the gasket surface to prevent damage and to keep debris out of the lower end. This is going to take time to fix, meanwhile you can get the head and valves repaired, order parts, etc. You will want to clean all of the bolt holes so get a 10mm x 1.5 pitch tap to do that with.
 
#32 ·
That (broken exhaust valve) is exactly what I thought I'd see. I believe the threads for the head bolts are 1.25 pitch though, aren't they, Jim ?
 
#34 ·
I will definitely do that. I've been doing a ton of research And it seems as though since I'm already taking the whole thing apart, I may as well rebuild the engine. It does have 32,000 miles on it and I don't know the history. So, I'm thinking all the valves, springs, gaskets, and piston rings should be replaced? My untrained eye just doesn't really know what to look for as far as damage to these parts or the pistons/cylinders. Additionally, would it be wise to go ahead and venture into the clutch and transmission also?
 
#35 ·
You're going to be taking the clutch ass'y off to split the case and once that's open the transmission is laying there. The FSM is pretty complete as far as inspection and tolerances go along with pictures. Any questions feel free to ask, pictures always help. You'll need to make a clutch nut socket, there's a sticky in this section on that.
 
#36 ·
Best advice I can supply, is go by the manual and measure everything. The specs are in the manual as well.
 
#37 ·
Thanks for letting me know about the clutch nut socket, I found that sticky. Looks pretty straight forward to make, and it'll be an excuse to buy more tools.

I do have the FSM. It's just outside my comfort zone so I guess I'm just worried I'm going to mess it up, or open the engine up only to find more issues that have costly fixes. I will follow the FSM tediously though.
 
#39 ·
I do have the FSM. It's just outside my comfort zone so I guess I'm just worried I'm going to mess it up, or open the engine up only to find more issues that have costly fixes. I will follow the FSM tediously though.
I got the same feeling when I looked through mine. It's like... I think I understand things, but I don't know, lol. Just do what I plan to do if/when I ever get the money to tear into my motorcycle - use this forum as a reference to go along with - and complement - the FSM. There is lots of information already in existence in the many threads here - and lots of very knowledgeable members who are happy to help people learn how to help keep their old Hondas alive.

Regards,
 
#40 ·
Relax, read the FSM one section at a time matching the operation you are doing and you'll be fine. When in doubt ask questions, post pictures, PM's, etc. You can even text me as needed, although I sometimes don't check the phone for a hour or 2 for messages.
 
#41 ·
You can even text me as needed, although I sometimes don't check the phone for a hour or 2 for messages.
Lol. While that might be somewhat inconvenient if someone is broken down at the side of a road somewhere, I've had PAID mechanics take longer than that to return a call.

Our own personal guru, on tap - heaps of kudos be upon you. You are truly a pillar of this community!

Regards,
 
#42 · (Edited)
Update

Thanks for the support everyone, it's helping me out a lot. Longdistancerider, that's quite an offer, one that I will definitely not abuse.

As for an update, now that I have all my finals out of the way, I finally have some free time to knock this out. Here's the current state of affairs (sorry to keep using an external source, the forum doesn't seem to have an option to add pics directly from my phone):
https://imgur.com/a/Sp26g

Had to remove the mufflers completely as they appear to be rusted in place, but doing so was a treat all on its own. Took me way longer than it probably should've. But anyway, underside doesn't look as bad as I thought it might. That exhaust valve is good and stuck though:
https://imgur.com/a/X11Gt

I can't seem to get the cylinders off though. It wiggles a tiny but, but that's about it. I assume that this is due to the broken bolts, but I didn't think they threaded into the cylinder part of the engine. Perhaps rust that has spread and fused it to the bolt? I sprayed some penetration lube in there and am letting it sit.
https://imgur.com/a/rIZFa

Also, I went ahead and drained the oil that I put in about 3 weeks ago (right after I bought the bike). It it looked like I was changing it on schedule as opposed to months and miles early. Bleh! The feeling that the guy I bought it from was not being completely honest with me is ever increasing...

Another update to come!
 
#44 ·
The feeling that the guy I bought it from was not being completely honest with me is ever increasing...
I for one am shocked - *SHOCKED* - that someone would be dishonest in an effort to sell a used motorcycle. What have we become?

Honestly tho - sorry man, but you'll get through it.
 
#43 ·
There are 4 tabs at the bottom of the cylinder that may be used for prying, 2 in front and 2 in the rear. The bolt have probably corroded into the cylinder some so let it soak in penetrating oil like you're doing.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Hello all, I believe it is time for an update on this thread. Sparing you the details, let me begin by saying that this entire endeavor has been an absolute nightmare every step of the way, and unfortunately, it's still not over. I have to vent for a second and say that I hate this engine, I hate this bike, I'm disappointed that this has been my genesis to the two wheel world, and I resent myself for it all because it really is all my fault. I'm not sure that I've ever gotten so frustrated and with such frequency in my entire life. I'm almost to the point of throwing it all off the nearest mountain I can find, taking the monetary loss, and buying new... almost...

Thank you if you made it through that, now here's what I currently need help with. I thought I was finally on the home stretch when I was putting the crankcase halves back together, but then another bolt broke. The FSM calls for 7-10 ft-lbs on 6mm bolts, and 14-22 ft-lbs on 8mm bolts. All of the ones I have are 10mm, so I figured 22 ft-lbs would be fine. However, the majority of the bolts eventually just spun at around 15 ft-lbs, and one right in the middle broke. I ended up ordering all new crankcase bolts, managed to remove the broken bit, and cleaned up the threads after I got it out. The new bolts I ordered arrived, so I went to reassemble, but this time I reduced the torque down to 18 ft-lbs to be safe. Again, the majority of the bolts eventually just spin without getting tighter, and the same (brand new) bolt broke in the exact same spot as the old one (but it happened with fewer rotations than the original). What in God's name am I doing wrong?

 
#47 ·
Most of the case bolts are 6mm, 10mm head on them. 2 or 3 are the 8mm.
Once the bolts have spun per se the threads in the holes have been pulled loose, choices then are longer bolts to catch undamaged threads or new threads by using heli-coils or time-serts. Unlikely there's enough threads to be able to use longer bolts.
The 8mm one that keeps breaking is probably bottoming out against debris in the hole. Need to run a tap down it, flush it out with carb cleaner and repeat until nothing flushes out and the tap bottoms. You should be able to feel when the tap bottoms because it'll stop hard. Don't keep trying to turn it or it will break off.
 
#48 ·
You can test each hole without assembling by using a spacer with a hole thru it to torque each bolt. Just measure the lower case thickness to determine how tall a spacer to use.
 
#49 ·
Ah, so pretty much I'm an idiot. I thought the 6mm vs 8mm was referring to the bolt head, not the threading. I'm not sure if the crankcase is in need of new threads though. The 6mm's just spin at about 15 ft-lbs without getting any tighter, but I think it may just be causing the bolts to stretch as opposed to damaging the threads of the crankcase. What do you think?
 
#50 ·
at this point, i'd start making a list. You're probably going to find that a used, running donor engine is going to be far cheaper than going in to do a rebuild. In honda's history, these are among the most 'disposable' of their designs. Be smart $wise.
 
#51 ·
phil71, he's doing a rebuild of the engine right now.
Worse case scenario is to get a upper case with it's matching crankshaft carrier. Those are match machined parts and cannot be swapped around. Hopefully you would find one with the same letter codes so those new bearings can be used.
At this time you need to run a tap in each hole and clean it out. Then using a spacer test each one of them for tightening to torque spec. There's not enough torque applied that would cause bolt stretch, if one doesn't tighten then the threads will have to be replaced using a heli-coil or time-sert. No other option. Once the bolt started turning without tightening the threads were ripped loose from the surrounding metal. I would test all of the holes and add up the costs of repair vs. replacing the upper case. It may be cheaper to replace the upper case.
NOTE: the upper case has the engine VIN number stamped in it. If you live in a state that records that number as part of the Title and Registration you will need to get the title changed to reflect the new number. If you were to get stopped in CA and they checked VIN's and found a mismatch the bike is immediately impounded until that is cleared up, meanwhile it incurs storage fees daily besides the tow fee. Quick way to loose a bike.