Nicely written

 

Well done! May this small sacrifice save many more bolts/valves/chains/pistons/heads in the future . Thanks for taking the time to test this.

 

I made this a sticky. this topic seems to come up a lot, and should help others.

 

If using loctite (or oily bolts) torque required will be less since they're Not Dry, the book torque is probably dry torque.
Manual says Camshaft sprocket bolts are 7mm and the specs show torque is 12 to 15 Ft/lbs (per Chilton's)
(NOTE) cam bolts are actually 6mm.. 12 to 15 Ft/lbs seems correct from the test I did.

When using red Loctite, would you advise using the lower end of the torque range?

 

If using loctite (or oily bolts) torque required will be less since they're Not Dry, the book torque is probably dry torque.
Manual says Camshaft sprocket bolts are 7mm and the specs show torque is 12 to 15 Ft/lbs (per Chilton's)
(NOTE) cam bolts are actually 6mm.. 12 to 15 Ft/lbs seems correct from the test I did.

When using red Loctite, would you advise using the lower end of the torque range?

Yes, I did mine at 12.5 Ft/lbs with red loctite on threads and I swapped cams after 2K hard run city miles, it was still torqued tight but came apart fine. The bolts were used twice.

 

Are you sure the sprocket needs to stay with the fat cam? I have heard that about the rockers.

 

The Fat Cam Sprocket id is larger than the std. cam sprocket id, it would be a gamble since it may not center well. I checked it, I have all the cams and sprockets. If it don't center I'm sure the chain would whip and that may lead to the uglies.

 

The interesting question is, how do you hold down the cam when applying torque in the engine?

It has been near imposible for me!

 

I use a rag and a oil filter wrench on the stator. You can also try to use a long wrench 14mm wrench on the stator bolt, but it may come loose from trying to crank loose loctited bolts.

 

I use vice grips on the crude casting part of the cam resting against the cam case, with rags around the cam and bearing cases off, then you can use a extension thru the end of the cam case for a strait shot at the bolts. It works for me.

 

Of course!! Thats way simpler, i dunno why i dint think of that, i was trying to use one of those socket u joints and it was way to long to fit between the sprocket bolt and the lobe

 

Of course!! Thats way simpler, i dunno why i dint think of that, i was trying to use one of those socket u joints and it was way to long to fit between the sprocket bolt and the lobe

The swivel sockets may change the torque reading quite a bit if at a angle.

 

Wish me luck. I can't get the torque wrench on it so I do them as best as I can from feel and I KNOW it could be off 100%. I use Locktite blue and try to err on the loose side, trying for 7 or 8 pounds and letting the Locktite do the rest.

So far so good.

 

Wish me luck. I can't get the torque wrench on it so I do them as best as I can from feel and I KNOW it could be off 100%. I use Locktite blue and try to err on the loose side, trying for 7 or 8 pounds and letting the Locktite do the rest.

Did this method end up holding up over time? Just did mine the same way and wondering if I should trust them or not before moving on.

 

Interesting to have a better idea of failure point.
Thanks

 

For those that may be interested, I have several NOS sets of these cam bolts for sale. They are new and unused. Price is $25 for the pair, shipped...........

 

Are these so hard to find in the USA?

 

Are these so hard to find in the USA?

Try finding a pair of them..............

 

At the end of October, 2013, I paid US $5.00 for a pair of these bolts from Bore Tech. I guess I'll have to trust them that these are not used parts. They were not in Honda OEM packaging. They have the black oxide coating and do not appear to have any wrench marks on them. I have heard that Bore Tech is a reputable supplier.

Ray

 

Well, guess what? I called Bore Tech this morning and asked about this. They told me that the bolts they shipped to me were used items. The tech there said that it is a myth that these grade-8 bolts are not safe to re-use. So . . . if I'd known that, I would have just re-used my original ones. Myth or not, these are critical fasteners and new would probably be best.

Ray

 

Honda specified that these are single usage and need to be replaced each rebuild for a reason......
Hardened fasteners are more resistant to compression/torque stressing, but LESS resistant to shear forces.....

On my own bikes, I have reused them....but never on a customer's bike......

 

My Genuine Honda Shop Manual for the CB/CL 250/350 SS (K0) but dated Oct '71 makes no mention of not reusing the cam sprocket bolts. It says "This is a special bolt and therefore it should not be lost or misplaced. It can be identified by the marking "9" stamp on the bolt head" .... / Later is says "Note: The bolts used are different types , setting dowel bolt and setting bolt, do not reverse their installation".

Was there something in later manuals which stated single use or a ServiceBulletin?

............Just noticed that my cam bolts have "11" stamped on the tops (later 312 cam)

Cheers ...... AshD

 

Are these so hard to find in the USA?

Try finding a pair of them..............

That's easy... I just bought two from cmsnl for 7 euros.

 

the hardening process makes them more brittle. For instance, cast iron is actually stronger than steel, until you hit it with hammer...It shatters like ice does. One of my favorite courses was material science. We broke a lot of samples (that's how they are tested) determing yield strength and "toughness" For my Senior Project, I designed and built a drop weight impact tester, which measures the "toughness" of material samples.

Cast iron makes great table legs (high compression strength) but lousy fasteners for the same reason, they shatter too easily in impact. engines are full of impact events.

 

Are these so hard to find in the USA?

Try finding a pair of them..............

That's easy... I just bought two from cmsnl for 7 euros.

Yes and Cmsnl charges 27 euros to ship them to the USA plus 7 euros for the bolts.. Thats $46.35 >>>> :shock: :?

 

Well... I can imagine that there are ways around that on an international forum like HondaTwins.net. Just let some Dutchman send them to you. Should cost about 2 euros. The downside is that you need to trust the sender because it will not be insured nor have track and tracing.

 

Just a comment on this topic, if memory serves me, the 2 different types of bolts used for the cam, one shouldered, one not, are specific to each position, shouldered one goes to a specific hole, non shouldered to another. Gotta read the fine print in the manual .....

 

You can look in the bolt holes in the cam and see the threads start deeper in one hole, that's the shouldered bolt hole. Best to look and mark it. You can read many threads on what happens when you get the bolts reversed or not torqued properly, it's a major thing.