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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What would keep me from using the original collar? What are some other sources for replacement bushings?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
damn well Im not good enogh to know if I can make it work or not. Do you have any suggestions for replacement bushings?
 

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Sensei
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Assuming the inside diameter of the collar ( pivot bolt size) is the same on both bikes, the only mod should be cutting the collar to length..... I'm not sure of the bolt size on the 750....
 

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NO it will not work :cry: The CB450 swing arm has an internal diameter of 26.5mm and there no roller bearing available in that diameter,26mm or 28mm but no 26.5mm or 27mm the pin is of a larger diameter than the original and will not it with the original bearings :cry: The Honda bush internal Dia is 21.5 and all the needle roller berings are round numbers i.e 20mm 22mm etc :cry:

Ok that said, if someone knows of a manufacture that makes a 26.5 or 27mm needle roller bearing please let the group know ;)

Rod from OZ :cool:
 

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66Sprint said:
Assuming the inside diameter of the collar ( pivot bolt size) is the same on both bikes, the only mod should be cutting the collar to length..... I'm not sure of the bolt size on the 750....
The collar on the 750's are the same Dia as the 450's but longer which no matter how you trim it, puts a section of the collar that is NOT hard faced in contact with the bush :| If you can find them AND they are cheep buy them, but there is a 450 one on EVILBAY for sale at the moment :shock:

Rod from OZ :cool:
 

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From my experience in metalworking, if one part of that collar is hard surfaced then it's likely that the whole thing is. Besides, if you had to have it turned in a lathe then it would have to be hard surfaced all over again..

As I've said in the past, I've been wrong before though... ;)

GB :mrgreen:
 

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Rod,
You are probably correct.... IF you are discussing the original "factory" 750 collar, it likely was high carbon steel, case hardened at least in the load bearing areas...
(I don't know for sure, but that's a logical assumption from an engineering standpoint)
My ASSUMPTIONS are that the "new" collar would be of a smaller outer diameter to compensate for the additional room the rollers would occupy (as the OD of the rollers would still have to press fit the swingarm ID)... Second assumption: the collars would be of a stainless steel (which work hardens besides being harder to begin with), and would be better suited to the purpose the more it was used... If I was fabricating from scratch, that's how I'd proceed... Plus, I'd add thin, flat, radial roller bearings inside the 'cup' washers for additional "smoothness" of motion......
Just my thoughts on the matter....Steve
 

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Bird76Mojo said:
From my experience in metalworking, if one part of that collar is hard surfaced then it's likely that the whole thing is. Besides, if you had to have it turned in a lathe then it would have to be hard surfaced all over again..

As I've said in the past, I've been wrong before though... ;)

GB :mrgreen:
Ah no go on that, Honda only finished the ends then hard cased them. I tested them (rockwell) and there was a significant difference between the ends and the center unfinished section. But of couse this may have been the case on only the original ones fitted, these things do change :roll:
 

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66Sprint said:
Rod,
You are probably correct.... IF you are discussing the original "factory" 750 collar, it likely was high carbon steel, case hardened at least in the load bearing areas...
(I don't know for sure, but that's a logical assumption from an engineering standpoint)
Correct :) and that appears to be what they have done

66Sprint said:
My ASSUMPTIONS are that the "new" collar would be of a smaller outer diameter to compensate for the additional room the rollers would occupy (as the OD of the rollers would still have to press fit the swingarm ID)... Second assumption: the collars would be of a stainless steel (which work hardens besides being harder to begin with), and would be better suited to the purpose the more it was used... If I was fabricating from scratch, that's how I'd proceed... Plus, I'd add thin, flat, radial roller bearings inside the 'cup' washers for additional "smoothness" of motion......
Just my thoughts on the matter....Steve
This was the approach that i was taking, but as stainless is $$ I was looking at 41XX Chrome/Moly or similar, same as used in gear shafts etc and getting it case hardened. The biggest problem is the inner swing-arm Dia is 26.5mm or 1.043" and i have not found a suitable one yet :( I have found one at 27mm with a 19mm inner dia, I'll have to the math on the drop in size V load, and it is only 20mm in length :| I'll ponder that one. As for the end cup you mean axial needle roller bearing right :) I had dismissed that as i have enough genuine Honda parts to do around 20 complete sets, felt, bush and cap, so was looking at just replacing the collar and bearings. You can get some lovely combined radial/axial bearings, but NOT 26.5 or 27mm :|

Rod from OZ :cool:
 

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We're back to a nomenclature thing... By "radial" I mean bearings that look like washers with rollers oriented on radii (as "spokes" would be in a wooden wheel)....essentially fancy thrust washers for rotating parallel flat surfaces....
To me, "axial" would indicate roller orientation along (parallel to) the axis (centerline) of the shaft/ tube/whatever.... maybe I'm thinking roller directionality/orientation instead of direction of rotation and have them switched....LOL...Wouldn't be the first time I was, or had something confused.... :? :? :? Steve
 

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66Sprint said:
We're back to a nomenclature thing... By "radial" I mean bearings that look like washers with rollers oriented on radii (as "spokes" would be in a wooden wheel)....essentially fancy thrust washers for rotating parallel flat surfaces....
To me, "axial" would indicate roller orientation along (parallel to) the axis (centerline) of the shaft/ tube/whatever.... maybe I'm thinking roller directionality/orientation instead of direction of rotation and have them switched....LOL...Wouldn't be the first time I was, or had something confused.... :? :? :? Steve
You got it Steve :D now take a sip of your favorite pain relief and have a nice lie down :lol: :lol: :lol: "radial" around the radius and "axial" from the axis out.

Rod from OZ :cool:
 

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Bird76Mojo said:
So then how did Honda case harden only the ends and not the entire collar??

Also, how did you go about testing the collar for varying levels of hardness??

GB :mrgreen:
Case hardening is best done to low carbon steel, it's a process of adding carbon to the surface and then the item is heat treated. The surface "case" becomes hard while the core remains soft and tough. So great wear resistance and little of the brittleness that is associated with it. There are three main methods of adding the carbon, Pack, Gas and Liquid.
Pack is when you pack the item into a container filled with charcoal or some other carbon rich material and seal it with fire clay, into the furnace it goes and as the temp increases carbon monoxide is produced and as it can not escape it combines with the iron on the surface of the steel, how deep it penetrates depends on the amount of time it stayes at temp (or soak) ;)
Gas, Carbon rich gas is added to the furnace and the same as Pack, as the temp increases the carbon combines with the iron in the steel.
Liquid, The item is placed into a molted salt bath in which carbon rich "chemicals" are added and yes you guessed it as the temp rises the iron and carbon have a party ;)

Ok got all that, these two process can be separated and were performed that way in the past. Often items were treated with carbon and then heat treated to case harden them later. A common way in the past was to hold the item and heat the area that was required to be case hardened only, this was easer in production as the cost etc were reduced. I can only wonder how Honda did it but it would have been a production line affaire holding the centre and radiating only the tips of the collar.

I/we use Brinell and Rockwell test procedures, It would be easer for you to do a Google on them. basically they both force a hardened steel ball into the surface and then either the diameter or the depth is measured giving you a quantitive figure which is compared against a known value.

Hope i didn't lose you there.

Rod from OZ :cool:
 

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I understand the testing processes, and a little about case hardening.. Just not how Honda did it. That's why I asked how Honda did it.. Specifically to the ends only. I thought maybe you knew...

"I/we" - So what kinda of machinery did you use to perform this test Rod??


GB :mrgreen:
 
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