Honda Twins banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Recently I watched this YouTube video,
and the guy tries running his lawn mower on white gas(Coleman fuel) and it runs just fine. Apparently white gas stores over time really well and I was curious if anyone has tried putting white gas in their tank for winter storage. Or what are people's thoughts on that?
FYI I run ethanol free fuel and put some fuel stabilizer in it for the winter, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
I'm gonna have to Google it to see exactly what the contents of that "fuel" is..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
IMG_7942.jpg IMG_7943.jpg
Now WHAT exactly hydrotreated distillates" is? I have no idea if memory serves me this "fuel" in camp stoves need to be "pressureized" / pumped to be fed.. I was always head these stoves as call "alcohol" burning stoves..
That was WAAAAAAAYYYYY back when I was a scout..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
755 Posts
Interesting. In the not to distant past I've taken great pains to guard against all the ills of ethanol "enhanced" fuel. Then I read this.

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/oxygenated_fuels.html

It just goes against EVERYTHING I've been led to believe. Pretty radical, but then... the source is a guy who has his ducks lined up rather well. Hmmm. Mike Nixon has been around the barn a few times. I'm inclined to listen to what he says.
 
  • Like
Reactions: J-T and Alan F.

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Oupa that is a very interesting article on E10/15 thank you for the link. It however does not mention moisture or moisture precipitation due to temperature gradients at all. I do not understand how any discussion of ethanol laced fuels can not talk about the subject of h2o contaminants. I am in Florida where humidity is high and so is ambient daytime temperatures and ethanol laced fuel does precipitate moisture out of the fuel with the presence of air in the tank and temperature changes. This occurs most notably in fuel tanks aboard boats, all of my boats do have fuel water separators (Raycor) and the elements of these need frequent changes due to the abundance of moisture. Alcohol and water do mix, gasoline and water do not, that should be something anyone can agree is true.

The other issue I have noticed is with 4 stroke engines that are carburated and little used and the small amount of fuel left in the bowl even after running the motor "dry" will over time evaporate and what is left after a long period is moisture and that causes corrosion of the float mechanism.

In any vehicle that does not get daily use I will try to keep the fuel tank as full as possible and I will use recreational fuel in addition to a product called "Gas Shok" which I have found to be far more effective than "Sea Foam" in preserving fuel. My daily drivers all get a gas shok treatment 3-4 times a year. It will absorb moisture better than the ethanol in suspension and allow it to go through the system and be burned in combustion. I also drain the carburator bowls of all remaining fuel before putting the motor to "bed" and that prevents both varnishing of the jets, a common problem in small 4 stroke outboards with carbs and in gas engine generators. This is in addition to fogging oil for seldom used equipment and motors. I wish that all engines were like Honda outboards that all have bowl drain systems set up with easy access and a simple slotted screw and drain tube.

Back in the day, we used to call Amoco gas "white gas" as during that time all gasoline was leaded and Amaco's high test was not, that and Sunoco 103 octane (i never trusted that dial on the pump, lol) were the fuels everyone used in their bikes if they wanted to "splurge". But I have never considered Coleman Fuel as a gasoline product for any motor.

Furthermore talk to any tech at Goodyear rubber products about the effects of ethanol fuels on older rubber products and I do not think they are making up those ASTM specs.

Cheers,
Vince
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,203 Posts
The issue of moisture is another grossly exaggerated malady. While it is true that alcohol does absorb water it cannot suck water through the walls of the fuel system. It merely absorbs the water that condenses from the air that enters the tank through the vent. With non-ethanol fuel any water that condenses sinks to the bottom of the tank where it collects until there's enough to start dribbling down the lines to the carburetor(s) where it builds up until it starts mixing with the fuel going into the jets which is when it causes problems. You can observe this using two clear bottles. Put fuel with ethanol in one and without ethanol in the other. Dump a thimble full of water in each then shake them up and see what happens.

In northern climates water in the gas can freeze in the fuel lines. To combat this we add a product called HEET to the gas. The active ingredient in HEET is alcohol. (http://econtent.autozone.com:24999/znetcs/msds/en/US/136368)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
I glanced through the article..I will read it fully later
There is some good information, some truth and some "partial" truth.. Just the first lines about misconceptions that this fuel doesn't allow carborators to work properly.. or harm carborators.. it's the alcohol (additive) IN the fuel that is the issue. It causes gaskets, o-rings, soft parts to fail over time..
I'm not gonna get on my non-ethenhol soap box, and I do understand these motors were designed and manufactured when petrolium pruducts were different .. the same as leaded and non-leaded gas chamged due to leadoxide being burned and hardened valves and seats changed in manufacturing.
There are a lot of small motors out there (mowers, snowmobiles, pressure washers, outboards, etc) and I'm pretty sure a lot of these manufactures don't assemble with Viton soft parts.. they use inexpensive stuff.. hence the whole "ethenhol BAD" craze...
Alcolol as a fuel can be good, it burns "cooler", you can increase compression.. but that is in a performance sitatuon oh, it burns cleaner...
Hell it will even "clean" your carb.. from old seperated varnished fuel..
Running modern fuel in modern cars is normal, they are designed for it...
Same reason desiel motors use their specific fuel..
I remember as a kid, my cousin used to fill his 70 boss 302 at the local airport.. it was a factory HIGH compression motor.. and the 109 avgas made it run so much better... the motor was designed for that fuel..if he can't get that fuel now..a octaine booster is needed.. basically like adding a lead additive for older motors or a ethehol / stabilizer we do for today's fuels.. except the soft parts are still suseptable ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,085 Posts
While I'm not an expert or scientist who can validate any of the above discussion (with the exception of alcohol and water mixing), I can attest to the use of ethanol-infused fuels in my bikes over the last 5+ years, as well as in my power equipment (lawn mower, garden tractor, pressure washer, generator) with only 2 of the 4 mentioned having a fuel shut-off so the carbs can be run dry, with no issues at all. I've used Stabil in the fuel for all of them, at the recommendation of a very knowledgeable old friend and mechanic, and whether or not is has been the difference, I can't say for sure - but something is working, and it allows me to avoid the expense of higher-priced fuel alternatives and other additives and/or methods to avoid the issues potentially associated with ethanol-infused fuel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,364 Posts
Oh.. as stated prior water in the fuel .. from the acolhol obsorbing it from the atmosphere.. and running THAT through ur motor can ruin more than just a set of spark plugs..
^^^^ agreeed... something is working .. I will swear by any GOOD QUALITY fuel stabilizer / additive over the type of fuel... years ago I was informed "not l gas is the same, the best gas we get here (Georgia) is garbage compared to the worst gas in South Carolina". This was passed on to me my a well seasoned mechanic when I picked his brain when my wife's car developed engine "knock" and loss of power...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
FWIW. When I was in Mexico years ago, "white gas" simply meant unleaded. Almost got stranded in the middle of Baja while trying to find a village that sold white gas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,473 Posts
Yea I know two stroke and not a 4 stroke but in the 40s and 50s white gas is all we ran in our outboards. Outboard motor oil at 25 to 1.They must have changed it in the late 50s as my 61 Johnson would run on whatever you put in it. I now run a four stroke air cooled on my fishing boat. Reg gas with stabil'

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
399 Posts
Per the article big oil isn't driving ethanol it's the US Govt.
Not really. It's big agriculture driving the ethanol thing. The ethanol requirement has driven up the commodity price for corn which impacts the price for white corn. This impacts the poor in Mexico more than anyone. It was estimated that the corn used for ethanol production is sufficient to feed 200 million people.
Ethanol is not necessary at all to meet emissions.
The attempted EPA mandate for E15 isn't based on any science at all. It is based on political contributions from big AG to the political parties.
We are being played.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
755 Posts
Mike's other article on gasoline https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/gasoline.html is worth a read. Some of it is overlap with the one posted above, but his recommendation of "fuel stabilizer" might raise an eyebrow or two.

I'm certainly no expert. I'm not even qualified to judge who is or isn't likely to me more correct in this. I would encourage everyone to look into Mike Nixon's bio before judging him a whackjob from what you read somewhere else though. ;) This is PARTICULARLY pertinent to old Hondas!

Like many, I've experienced some issues I've blamed on fuel because everything I read or heard said that was what caused it. The single most convincing thing in Mike Nixon's explanations though is common sense. He's literally had his hands in this issue since the days before ethanol. He does a pretty good job of explaining it in layman's terms. I was already aware of his references to the marine industry driving the anti-ethanol movement. THAT is all about the moisture issue raised by some here. Boats have to work around wet environments. I know from back in the 70's everyone used to use "dry gas" in the winter. It was like 99 cents a pint on a display beside the pumps. I read the label one day and realized it was nothing but alcohol and began using solvent alcohol from the hardware store where I worked. That was about fifty cents a quart! Dry gas, et al, in contrast to its name however, ATTRACTS moisture. It gathers the water already in your tank (from whatever source) and allows it to be passed with the fuel rather than collecting as a separate substance where it's susceptible to freezing in winter. One source of water in fuel "back in the good old days," was leaky underground storage tanks. ALL fuel had some water in it, some more than others.

As to the AG industry. It has certainly benefited by the adoption of corn for fuel. That attachment is unlikely to go backward any time soon. It wasn't their idea though! I recall two decades ago certain politicians advocating ethanol not merely as an additive, but a potential replacement fuel (like was tried in Brazil). More than one was heard saying something to the effect that half the country is planted in corn. We have plenty of fuel growing every year... and it never occurred to them that, that corn was already being used for something else. Like FOOD! :-? Farmers don't care who buys their corn or what they do with it. They just want the best price. Can't blame them! Those commodity guys though. They're the ones with the wherewithal to influence policy for the greatest profit for merely buying and selling someone else's work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
399 Posts
Back in the day, water in fuel was mostly the result of condensate in the gas tank. This is why folks would try to keep their tanks full in cold weather.
Ethanol is popular because of the federal subsidies for ethanol. Take away the subsidies, ethanol is not at all competitive.
It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol produces.
Take into account the seed, fertilizer (from petroleum), fuel used for planting, cultivating, harvesting, transportation to production plants and energy for conversion
and you have a real loser.

So, you are generating more emissions in ethanol production and use than you would otherwise.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,203 Posts
Old wives tale. Even with subsidies ethanol plants could never compete if it took more energy to produce it than it contains. The claim that producing ethanol produces more pollution than the reductions resulting from it's use assumes that all the land used to grow corn for ethanol would lay idle if we quit making ethanol. Same with the food analogy. The process of turning corn (and other crops) into ethanol also produces distillers grains, an ultra-high protein livestock feed. The reason farmers look for new markets for their products is that their ability to produce them has outpaced the worlds ability to consume them.

In any case, this discussion is moving into areas well outside where HondaTwins legitimately goes. Let's get back to discussing bikes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
755 Posts
In any case, this discussion is moving into areas well outside where HondaTwins legitimately goes. Let's get back to discussing bikes.
Just to be clear, I take it you're referring to the whole ethanol/political angle. My original post (regarding fuel) was about something common to all our bikes and the assorted beliefs surrounding it - fuel. Is THAT off limits to?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,203 Posts
Your original topic is perfectly legitimate. I was referring only to the political angle that is developing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
755 Posts
That's cool. No problem!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,180 Posts
So the conclusion is that we can run out bikes on the white gas purchased at retail outlets? or is 55 octane prohibitively low?
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top