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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hello forum friends,

Apologies since I noted I started two small threads already but I feel this warrants one all by itself due to the odd issue I just experienced. Perhaps this could help someone else that is baffled. My ride would not kick over the other day, I did not wanna force the kickstarter but somehow it was sort of in gear when I know for a fact, that's right, a fact ;) that it has always been in neutral on center stand during adjustments/tuning/cleaning since the beginning of the season.
The electric starter is still making the 'marbles in a can' sound but....toward the end of the session it almost sounded like it should and almost dropped correctly into idle(we know this part could be sync or timing). Carbs are cleaned and floats readjusted to 20mm, they were a slight hair off.

Now, the motor turns freely and easily and is not impeded by anything, as I sadly learned a year ago when it was repaired due to an obstruction inside the motor. I know what it feels like. When my bike did idle earlier in the week, albeit not as it should the rotor spun freely and consistently and there were no issues. Starter clutch was rebuilt with NOS parts less than a year ago and double-checked for proper installation. I will be double-checking ignition timing later this week and carb. sync. both pipes have strong exhaust pressure and left slightly hotter. Motor sounds very strong and revs high and gassed without sputtering noises, but dies due to sync. etc. issues.

Thoughts? I feel very nervous to kick it over later this week, I don't wanna force anything. this is strange. How does this even happen if I did not ride my bike just yet?! can frustration already be setting in? this early?
 

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So, you tried to use the kick start, and it just stuck, unable to turn the crank? I'd start by taking the plugs out and shining a light in there, to try and have a look at the valves; may be better to take the carbs and headers off, too, for a good look. If the valves on the side with the piston near TDC are closed, next comes the side covers (again, ugh!). The starter chain could have somehow jumped off and jammed the crank, or something could have jammed the primary gears between crank and clutch.

You followed up with the motor turns freely - so, whatever keeps the kick start from turning the engine over doesn't prevent the electric start from turning it? If that's what you mean, then it is likely something in the transmission, as the kick start turns a gear on a helix, that moves out and drives the transmission input shaft. Bottom case off, and put the lever back on the kick start, so you can check out what those parts are doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
the kicker stuck because for some odd reason it appeared the bike was halfway in N and first when I swear it was always in Neutral to begin with. odd for sure and I wonder....
as stated, toward the end the start up sounded more correct albeit still out of final adjustments but the starter noise was less. I'm wrenching again today so I will report back with findings. It seems after all this time that maybe only one or two years did everything go smoothly immediately after winter storage and off I went. This gets very trying over time.....

My battery is basically 4 years old and we all know about batteries and 450s....It holds the correct voltage under load and I had it tested at an auto shop just before Spring and it was confirmed 'good.' On my charger it charges correctly and was reading out nearly 14v prior to installation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Updates:

1. I re-cleaned the carb jets and once again checked the float heights. All good. However, I made a blunder of installing the points plate itself slightly off and that was a major issue. It happens... I re-did the ignition timing and it was much better :) It was very helpful to have an extra set of eyes on things to assist.

2. The electric starter sounds like crap. Had my pop lent a hand/opinion and he stated it's not engaging at all despite the rotor spinning freely at all revolutions and the points functioning correctly. Ugh! So...obviously parts naturally wear out. I am strongly considering just leaving that alone and utilizing my kicker. Not looking to make extra work nor ship off the starter parts to pay $$ for any required rebuilding etc. Thoughts? Marbles in a can sound.

3. Kick starter moving much better and kicking over easily, no annoying resistance. Can this be a result of the point plate and timing now being correct?

4. Ugh. Seems my shifter could only change gear once without running, as opposed to before when I could easily shift at least twice when not running; Done just to confirm it worked. It did not drop down into first! I think this could be attributed to me needing to go back and re-positioning the shifter itself to get more accurate position. Hey, it happens. Clutch functions correctly and feels the way I like it at the lever.

5. Bike started easily and idled! albeit incorrect rpm (900) and needs idle speed and carb. sync. no sweat. hopefully ;P

I feel better already however, I certainly hope I don't have any bs transmission issues because one of my bike's best traits is shifting like butter.... Thoughts? Praying to the motor gods.
 

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2. The electric start is quite simple, but you have to remove the left engine cover before removing it for service. The output is a simple sun and star gear arrangement, with three planetary gears that provide the reduction ratio. If the grease in them has dried, you could get that noise. All along, I've been thinking it is the chain rattling against the case. There is another thread here on how to restore the starter motor; you just need to make marks on the cases so you can realign them when putting it back together. Or, you could just remove it and plug the hole, and save a few pounds.

3. Yes, it could be, if you were getting an early spark, and the engine was kicking back.

4. IMO, you're lucky it will shift once with the engine stopped and the rear wheel not moving. Those gear faces have to align, and it is unusual for any pair to be in the proper position.

Seems like you're almost done, and can go riding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
thanks @WintrSol. I'm leaning toward that. And to further complicate things I have been battling a left foot complication and procrastinating with further medical intervention. Toward the end of last season it was killing me at higher speed rides :( healing has been slow but feels much more mobile than a few months back so fingers crossed. NY weather has been gorgeous!

as for the starter, I think you're correct. ugh. My pop has some additional time on his hands and could use something to keep him busy so I might ask him :) I know dime city offers this service if you send them your stuff but the charge was like $300. I need that dough for when my local guy gouges me for front tire & brake pad installation.:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No soap. Ended up making more work for myself. I’m confused cuz this is the biggest carb sync struggle to date. Now, timing is correct and bike kicks over nicely; Second kick and roars to life. I know my throttles are not correct because when my right side cable is turned way counter clockwise the outcome is poor so what to do? Turn clockwise and nothing....no dramatic change but I know for a fact the left lifts earlier. Before, when I idled albeit incorrect speed the right side did not change when I gently adjusted idle speed. I have spark on both sides, plugs fire and look clean after revving and starting and repeating. Left pipe warm,right cooler, but both exhaust pulses are strong and feel nearly equal. Reconfirmed float levels and clean jet passages. Battery checks out with multimeter and charging system works; when revved the volts increased. New fuel, which is only a week old. Ignition timing checks out and even the starter motor sounded as it should but i’m Laying off it for now.

looking at my earlier threads from way back I feel I have regressed with wrenching �� at this point, I have done what I know so...i’m back here with my Twins crew. ����
Rereading my earlier posts i’m stumped because a mere week ago this thing def idled...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Update: sorry to drag this on...so the left side carb was def. lifting earlier and now they seem in better sync but the issue seems that the left side was stuck open and my ride idled at 3,500. so, thinking this was merely an idle speed issue I did what I knew and this did not cure it at all. Feels like a lazy right cylinder despite cleaned carbs yet again, floats correctly set, ignition timing confirmed. this is the toughest carb sync to date and I cannot seem to get it right. Both plugs fire and left side pipe is warmer so we know that side is currently carrying the bike.

I started another thread in electrical asking for spark plug boot and wire voltage values and how to check that with what tool. Help! cannot seem to get this right and in the course of 3 days it seems my spark is not as strong? how did that magically happen...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Attention Mods For anyone still reading....please assist. Mods, feel free to move it to the most applicable section.
So my bike kicks over with ease but I am still battling this high idle problem. At this point, I have already done everything I know/usually do to have things running smoothly and I'm not getting the desired results. This is now by far the toughest final tuning I'm battling to date. Last night I noted my right side idle speed screw had like no effect at all with setting the idle! ugh. For years, it appears that side only likes to have that speed screw twisted out a lot. Been that way with no issues. This season? well, pipe is hot but was blowing cooler air. I always note that dialing in right sides on 450s is more of a pain than the left. We have confirmation of proper timing and no issues with consistent spark. the points cover is not shorting out the right; Have double gaskets on there to prevent this. :)

1. compression tested both sides; Read out at nearly 170 and that's with a gauge not really designed for smaller engines. this is good :)
2. floats at 20mm.
3. carb passages are all clean. did this 2x
4. mixture screws were 1 and 1/4 turns out but didn't really make an impact during tunings.could be telling me carbs need cleaning yet again?
5. advancer working.
6. points and ignition timing dialed in/confirmed correctly. no dirt/gunk holding things up. Bike is not 'hunting for idle' or dropping and rising RPMS.
7. throttle cables synchronized. I had an extra set of eyes & hands assist. Much easier with help ;)
8. battery is 4 years old now but was load tested at auto shop and confirmed good. will replace anyways after final tuning. Charging system works correctly and measured with multi-meter.
9. valves and camchain were properly adjusted and are still well-within the time period before needing to be re-adjusted. no odd noises whatsoever.

I have a brand new set of air boxes/filters which, for what it's worth could help me here? I can install soon. Should I even bother replacing the right side idle speed screw with another off my backup carb set?
Jseconds77 disclaimer: STILL takes me a long time to adjust/wrench at this point in my bike career and I feel it shouldn't. this is frustrating and the month is quickly passing me by....

thoughts?
 

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J - I'm not sure what your referring to as idle speed screws. The mixture screw about 1 1/4 out should be fine-its not real critical in my experience. Sounds like the cable adjusters aren't letting the throttle plates close. They should only be a tiny sliver open at idle.
 

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Make sure the throttle grip turns about 1/8" or more before lifting either throttle. Turn the grip until you feel the slack is gone, then very slowly turn it more while watching the throttle on the carbs. They should slowly start to lift just as the slack comes out of the grip rotation, not before. Assuming the above is true, you must have an air leak, which could be the felt seals on the throttle shaft, a cracked or poorly seated boot, or the seal between the boot and head. Or, the throttle plate is installed incorrectly/bent; you can check this by popping the carb from the boot and looking at how well the throttle plate seals around the edges. It should close tightly if the idle adjust screw is backed out. Unlikely, but possible, if that large diameter brass plug under the throttle has been disturbed, its seal could be leaking. In any case, blowing cooler air at idle tells me you probably have too little fuel flowing into an excess of air. Have you checked the pilot jet and slow jet are both seated properly?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Love my twins crew.....so, here’s where i’m at....I replaced my air filters with brand new units and pleased to say the carbs seat much better. The right side blows warm air and has strong, equal pressure to the left. The idle hung at 3k as opposed to 4+ before but when I merely subtlety adjust the left idle speed screw the result is overly dramatic and the bike dies. The right side idle speed screw does not seem to have much effect and this is why I cannot achieve the proper idle. I think�� the throttle cables are in sync and I had an extra set of eyes confirm this once again. I don;t have intermittent spark issues and my battery was recently load tested and checked out.

so, with ignition timing correct and carbs and floats clean and done why is this so difficult now? I could always utilize the idle speed screws to achieve the desired result but not anymore.....I did note that today the right side backfired...lean condition? If so, I forgot how to remedy this.

thanks to all still reading
 

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I guess you have to try the seals on the throttle next. Another person here (forget his name right now) suggests connecting a vacuum cleaner to the carb on one end, covering the other, and shooting a lubricant into the gap between the throttle shaft and carb body, so it gets sucked into the felt seals. I haven't tried this method, but have used the red tube on a lubricant spray to work it into the seals. I had a measurable leak on one carb, not as large as yours must be, but now I get a near perfect vacuum sync from idle to ~3500rpm.

It occurs to me - have you verified the idle speed screw actually moves the throttle arm, with no change?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, the screw moves the arm. Of course, this part as we know is subtle. Can I do a cheat and gently advance my points plate to keep it running and then just fine tune the idle speed? I seem to be out of ideas...I don’t wanna be a wise guy and just ride it as is hoping it improves with each blast off. Remember, for me to get home my ride really has to be more tip top however, at my dad’s his terrain is more forgiving so I can give that a shot? Not hard to push home from there....ha ha I don’t wanna start throwing dough at it and get a new throttle cable for the sake of having something new....

enjoy your weekend...back at the thing Tuesday.
 

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Did you remove the throttle plates when you rebuilt the carbs? If the plates aren't centered when you screw them back on they'll hang up not allowing them to fully close. In order to rev high,(like 3000 rpm or more), it needs air. And if it's not leaking at the boots or felt seals then it's getting by the throttle plate which must be open too much from some reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ok...so been out and about but back at my ride today. This was the toughest go 'round because I noted my right side exhaust made a loud pop/backfire and a flame very quickly shot out! now, I have heard of this but of course, this has not happened to me personally. Does this indicate a lean condition and if so, how can I remedy? I believe I have a lazy firing right cylinder because when I manually lifted the flipper on the outside of that carb it did not immediately respond as the left does. For the record, I always have difficulty timing that pesky side than the left.

I plan on double-checking ignition timing once again come Monday. My carb passages are all blown clean and floats confirmed again at 20mm. Bike does kick over easily but it does not drop into idle. still.
I await the responses of my awesome Twins crew. And for the record, this is the longest it has taken me to date to properly tune and setup this thing. what gives?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
sorry to leave anyone still reading this hanging. I'm running 140 mains now and all seems fine, seems the plug coloring could be a little better but they're new so I assume I need to leave 'em in longer before rechecking them.
My minor surgical procedure went well and I'm cleared tomorrow afternoon to hit the road once again.....just in time for the pissing NY rain scheduled for this week ;) though the weekend is looking perfect.

thanks as always to my Twins crew! bike kicks over fine and sounds strong. idle is not 100% but it doesn't stall when slowing down or sitting at a traffic device; though I gently blip it ;) Leaving better than well enough alone....
 

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You don't mention which carb you have, 723x, what?? The mixture screws should have some effect at idle - number of turns may not be the same as the book says.

I check for leaks with a propane torch (not lit of course). Ditto on the comments about the flapper plates on the engine side - if they're not screwed back in perfectly things will be wanky at low rpm. I try to avoid removing that flapper and shaft.

You seem to have a lot of trouble with carb synch, I'd recommend putting some vacuum taps in. Cheap, just takes a few minutes - drill a hole, tap it, screw these in......they'll take all the baloney out of carb synch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
yes, I do struggle with carb synch. still! however, I try to make sure I never let them get too far out of whack but this season, I did and that is why it took me longer to get 'em back into proper working order. I have the 723a model and for some reason this season they prefer the 140 mains, as opposed to the 135s I have been using; Ran perfect for 2 straight seasons(2 years in bike talk) with those mains so I don't know why it needed a change this year. Running fine so, knock on wood, I will keep it that way. currently watching the pissing NY rain, which we'll have all week. wonderful....

thanks to all for their valuable insight. good to know once I'm set my bike is waiting for me once again. I am strongly considering getting the Hondaman ignition come next year.
 

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note when you're tearing into the starter, the "marbles" sound isn't likely the starter motor but the sprag/one-way clutch on the rotor. the rollers and springs are readily available but may not fully solve the problem. what's happening is the rollers wear a groove over time, into the ramp. it's possible to re-grind the ramp with your dremel (using much care) to remove the groove. The sound is from the rollers engaging the groove and rotor, then snapping out and hitting the ramp cage. this happens quickly x3 rollers so it sounds like marbles in a blender. will post the link to what I did that fixed mine.
 
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