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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello All,

As i attempted to start my CL450K5 this morning for my ride to work, the starter didn't want to turn the engine over. Thought maybe the battery might be low on juice so tried the kick start. With the kickstart, the engine turned over a couple times, then the lever locked up and would not move. I guess my question is, if the starter has an issue will it cause the kick lever to lock? Any help on what I should look at would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

Ed-

Electric start is completely independent of the kickstart.
The electric start turns the crankshaft directly (via the starter clutch), while the kickstart works through the transmission and clutch.

Unless the starter clutch is frozen to the crank (I've never actually seen this, usually they slip when bad), there should be no interference with the kick start.

My feeling is that first, you're probably correct in assuming the battery was too weak to work the starter.
Second, sounds like your kick starter is busted - too bad, because the only way to access it is by splitting the cases.

Try the kicker with the clutch lever pulled in - it should turn freely, NOT turning the engine over.
If it's still stuck, you have some work ahead of you.

And if your battery is too weak to turn the starter, it's probably ill-advised to take off on the bike. A 450 runs completely off the battery, so it will probably be a short time till it won't run at all.


Oh, and please go to your User Profile and add the year/model of your bike and your location to your signature......
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

Thanks for the reply. Could something be broken internally to cause both the kicker and starter to freeze up? I am new to this and really don't know anything about how the engine works :oops: When I get home this evening, i'll try kicking with the clutch lever pulled in and see what happens. Then decide how to proceed from there.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

PAScrambler said:
Thanks for the reply. Could something be broken internally to cause both the kicker and starter to freeze up? I am new to this and really don't know anything about how the engine works :oops: When I get home this evening, i'll try kicking with the clutch lever pulled in and see what happens. Then decide how to proceed from there.

Just about the only thing that could cause that is a seized engine - we don't want to go there.......

The electric start should work even with the clutch lever pulled in.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

is the bike in neutral? if not then you may be trying to move the bike, tranny could be locked up.. you may try the electric start with the clutch in.. would tell you if the problem is before the transmission or not.

The other possibility is that your cylinders are hydro-locked... try cranking it over with the plugs out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

Ok, got home and tried your suggestions. I have the bike in neutral while trying and both spark plugs removed. I tried the electric starter with the clutch lever pulled in, no deal. Tried the kick lever with clutch disengaged and it will work without turning the engine. Tried the electric start again and something broke free? and turned the engine momentarily then promptly locked up again. Am I doomed to pull the engine and dig into it to figure this out?
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

PAScrambler said:
Ok, got home and tried your suggestions. I have the bike in neutral while trying and both spark plugs removed. I tried the electric starter with the clutch lever pulled in, no deal. Tried the kick lever with clutch disengaged and it will work without turning the engine. Tried the electric start again and something broke free? and turned the engine momentarily then promptly locked up again. Am I doomed to pull the engine and dig into it to figure this out?

No, I'd have a look at the starter clutch first.
No need to pull the engine for that, but you will need a $10 special tool to get the alternator off.....
If nothing is obvious there, then you can get worried.
Might always be the starter motor itself, we'll see - don't despair..........
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

If you have any good fastener vendors around you (McMaster-Carr, Fastenal, maybe an auto parts store or hardware store with a good selection) just get any bolt or screw with an M16x1.5 thread (aka: fine thread) and at least about 25mm of thread. Should cost around $3.

The engine does continue to turn over with the kicker right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

I removed the left covers. I then took the starter chain and sprocket off. The starter spins freely when unattached to anything. I'm not exactly sure what I need to look at next, as the kick lever is still locked up. If I roll the bike back and forth while in gear it will free up, but then after a couple kicks it locks up again.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

PAScrambler said:
I removed the left covers. I then took the starter chain and sprocket off. The starter spins freely when unattached to anything. I'm not exactly sure what I need to look at next, as the kick lever is still locked up. If I roll the bike back and forth while in gear it will free up, but then after a couple kicks it locks up again.
Well, then it looks like the starter is ok - even if the starter clutched was seized to the crankshaft it wouldn't matter once you removed the starter chain.

Looks like there's a more serious problem somewhere, maybe the kick shaft or something in the tranny.
You probably ought to plan on pulling the engine and splitting the cases.
You do not have to remove the top end to do this, though that's little consolation I know.
If it has good compression I wouldn't touch the top end.
Of course it is still possible that the top end or crankshaft itself is locking up for some reason. The fact that the electric start also locks up sort of confuses the issue.

Incidentally, how did you manage to get the starter chain off without pulling the rotor off??
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

Thanks for your help thus far. I'm not going to rush into this as not to compound the problem. I probably will be seeking a LOT of assistance from anyone who is willing to help me through this project. Just a week ago, I stripped an old Kreem job from the tank and relined with Por 15. I also cleaned, rebuilt and synched the carbs and put on new fuel line and filters. It was running great til now. :cry:

As far as the starter chain coming off, it was quite simple. The small sprocket on the end of the starter shaft slid right off, then the chain was free to be removed from the starter clutch sprocket.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

Usually, there is not enough slack in the starter chain to allow the motor sprocket to be easily removed..... Most times, you can "cheat" by removing the starter motor itself but you don't appear to have done that... THAT is why we wondered......

Yes, you pull the bolt (in the center of the alternator rotor), and then thread in the removal tool....BUT, before you do that, see if the sprocket behind it will rotate in one direction, but lock-up in the other....If it does, there is no need to disassemble further at this time.....

I too am of the opinion that there is a problem with the kicker shaft and its gears, or the transmission itself (perhaps something that is intermittantly "wedging" in there)and the next appropriate step is to flip the engine over and split the bottom case off to inspect.....You MAY find a/the problem/solution when you remove the right side cover in preparation to remove the clutch...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

No, I didn't remove the starter motor to get the sprocket and chain off. Both look to be in good condition.

The sprocket behind the alternator rotor does spin freely in one direction and locks in the other.

Before I remove the engine from the bike, can I remove the right side cover just to have a look ?
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

PAScrambler said:
.

Before I remove the engine from the bike, can I remove the right side cover just to have a look ?
Yes, but check one more thing for us - can you turn the engine over by turning the bolt on the alternator (counter clockwise)??
At least that will tell us if the top end is ok.........
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

I was wondering too......If the top end is free, I'm kinda hoping the clutch pressure spring screws have just backed out and "stuck" on the ribs of the case.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

Yes, i am able to turn the engine over by turning the bolt on the rotor. However, having zero experience, what "feel" should it have ? Smooth? Jerky? A bit of resistance?

I guess my next step is to remove the right side cover and have a look...
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

PAScrambler said:
Yes, i am able to turn the engine over by turning the bolt on the rotor. However, having zero experience, what "feel" should it have ? Smooth? Jerky? A bit of resistance?

I guess my next step is to remove the right side cover and have a look...
With spark plugs out, you should feel only minor resistance to turning it.
Hopefully it turned over 5 or 6 times without locking up??

If so, we're back to splitting the cases.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

You'll feel the cams actuating the valves and their springs (a decent amount of resistance but not ungodly) and it should be (as Bill said) rotated through several complete revolutions......... IF no major "tight" spots or metal to metal noises, you may be OK there.... Go ahead and pull the large right side cover and take pics if possible..(It will help us observe as well....)
I have had a bike in my shop where somehow, an 8mm nut got "dropped" through the oil-fill port and jammed it up, so it isn't improbable/impossinle something similar has occurred with yours....
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: Starter and kicker question

So, I removed the right side cover for a look. I don't see anything of concern, pics are attached. I am leaning towards the top end is not ok. I'm unable to turn the engine over for 5 or 6 revolutions. I'm lucky to get 1 - 2 turns and it's very jerky and then hits a spot where it's almost impossible to continue turning. With the plugs out and while turning the engine, shouldn't I see the valves moving? If so, they aren't.
 

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Re: Starter and kicker question

Sounds like a broken cam chain.. If that's the case then it won't be pretty inside the top end at all.

You have pulled one of the valve covers off while attempting to turn the engine over right?? That should tell the tale right there..


GB :mrgreen:
 
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