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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone have anything that resembles an exploded view of the internals of the starter?

I took mine off the lower case last night to find that the splined cap that drives the pinion gear had two loose planetary gears on it—without any sort of bushing or bearing on it. They are obviously missing, and the inside of that cam/rotor are gouged up a little. It appears as though someone dismantled the starter at some point and left some things out when they reassembled it. :roll: I'm debating a starter block off and delete on this build, and this mess of a starter is making it easier to decide. I'm really just trying to determine what other parts may be missing from this starter before potentially rebuilding it. I'm guessing a pair of 7mm x 10mm x 7mm bushing/roller bearings will be virtually impossible to find anyway (if that's actually what it is), so I may just cut bait on the starter. I'd still like to know what it's supposedto look like inside, though.

Any help is appreciated.



doug
 

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Here's a clip from the Factory Service Manual:



Here's a picture of my starter with the end cap off. Note that you would ordinarily not do this. You would remove the starter and disassemble it on the workbench. Still, this is what it looks like inside:



Here's the next step in the reduction needed for the starter motor to spin the engine. Even before the 17.84 to 1 reduction mentioned above, the starter motor in these little bikes is able to deliver a surprising amount of torque. I think it is an impressive little system that works very well:



It's your bike to do with as you wish, but I would certainly recommend going to the effort to rebuild the starter motor as necessary and then enjoy using it for a long time afterwards.

Ray
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yup, that's what I was looking for. Those bushings in the planetary idlers in my starter are MIA. Any idea if those are bronze bushings or needle bearings? Are there shims under those gears?

No clue on where I would find something like that. Good grief, why would someone put the starter back together like that without those inside the gears?



It also looks as if there are gaskets on the inside of that cap. Are those an unobtanium item, too? Might have to make those, eh?
 

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Those are bushings. The gasket in the picture is very thin. I made my own out of something other than normal gasket material, but I don't remember now what I used (I'm thinking brown paper bag material). In my starter, there were no shims under the planet gears, but there was a shim under the gear mtg plate shown here. I got one of those from McMaster-Carr, because the old one was torn. Basically, all I did to my starter was to clean out the carbon dust, measure the brushes (they were fine), re-lube the "permanently lubed" scintered bronze bush at the other end, clean and paint, and it has been working great ever since. If you are missing those bushings, you can probably get them from [URL]http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/[/URL]. I think they also sell rebuilt starters on that site, or will rebuild yours. There is a video on their website showing him going through a generic starter motor.

Some more reference: Click HERE
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Fantastic info, Ray, very much appreciated. I raced electric R/C cars for 30-odd years, so the starter is just like one large R/C car motor. Kinda fun taking them apart. I still have com cleaning sticks and Oil Lite bushing oil for those bronze bushings, too. Now, if I can get those bushings from Rick's, I'll be in business.


Thanks!




doug
 

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While disassembling my two starter motors I noticed that they are of the same type, but internaly different. the planetary gear ring is thicker in one and has an additional paper seal between the ring and the engine side starter cover. The engine side starter cover itself has no indentation (?) that slides into the main housing. Instead the larger gear ring sticks out the cover and thus joins cover and main housing. The other specimen with thinner ring has an indentaiton in the cover (engine side) that fits nicely into the main housing. Not sure though where the seals are or if some are missing.

If someone has detailed plans or pictures of the starter assembly I'd be very glad if you post them... rookie mistake: I forgot to take pictures while disassembling and I might even lack some of the seals on one or both motors. Not sure if the missing seals are part of different iterations of the same model, or if the motor was disassembled once already and now parts are missing (might be the case as I got some strange marks on the rotor).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I wanted to have all of the information in front of me to be able to make a reasonable decision about keeping the starter or deleting it. I pulled out ALL of the parts associated with the starter, including the starter and the rotor clutch parts. I put everything on a scale and weighed all of it to find out exactly what would be gained/lost with the delete.

Weight of all parts to remove:
• 2762 grams
• 97.426 ounces
• 6.089 pounds


There ya have it. 6 pounds. Hell, there are helmets that weight 4.5 pounds and that's high CG weight on your shoulders, neck and head! Most guys wouldn't spend money to get a lighter helmet but will easily yank a starter from a bike that actually has a practical application. And that's not including the weight of the plug that goes into the starter hole to fill the gap in the lower case.

Considering it is not all rotating mass, and is really close to the center of gravity of the bike, it's not as much loss as I had anticipated. Now, how much drag and weight the chain, sprockets and other minor parts are adding to the system, that's debatable. For a race bike, definitely get rid of all of it. No need to keep any mass attached to the crank for little benefit. For a street bike, it's probably fairly negligible weight loss, even on a cafe bike. I'm picked up the $25 rebuild kit and will clean it all up and put it all back together to be used on the final build. No sense in screwing up my knee any more than it already is by jumping on a kickstarter.

Maybe the real answer is to remove the kickstarter. ;)



Doug
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Some more reference: Click HERE
For what it's worth, on this page that shows the starter coming apart down to the can and the armature—well my CL350 starter did not disassemble quite like that. The arm was hung up on internal ground wiring from the can, and it could NOT be moved out of the way. Long story short, I managed to mangle the internals of the starter before even getting to the clean & rebuild process. From what I could see (and I may have missed something completely), the arm was not going to be removed from the can without damaging the brush wiring. I eventually relented to the fact that I was destroying the guts, so I removed the 4 can screws to get everything out to see how it came apart.

I'm committed to the starter at this point, so I guess I'll be looking for someone's throw-away after they deleted it from their build.

It's always a learning experience, eh? :)
 

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Yep, sorry -- I should have mentioned that. Mine had to come apart through the end where the planetary system was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yep, sorry -- I should have mentioned that. Mine had to come apart through the end where the planetary system was.

Heheh, whoops.

The planetary end was capped off with a solid plate with no visible means of attachment. How is that removed from the case? As long as I broke this one, I still want to see how it works and comes apart so that I don't do the same to the next one. :)
 

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I wish I had taken pictures as I went along. I just checked and I don't have any. It has been a while since I did mine. I hesitate to say this, because I am having trouble remembering, but I think that plate is just a light press fit. The whole thing is held together by the long, external bolts. I did find this old thread that I posted to. Click HERE
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Ah hah! That was it. I didn't even think of trying to tap it out from the inside-out. Whelp, at least I know how it all comes apart for the next one. LOL! And like you, I had one of those thick shims come out split into a C. Speaking of those shims, has anyone put a micrometer on all three stacked together to get a base shim thickness?

I will take photos to add to this thread here as I rebuilt it all so there is at least a reference for others to use.
 

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Speaking of those shims, has anyone put a micrometer on all three stacked together to get a base shim thickness?

I will take photos to add to this thread here as I rebuilt it all so there is at least a reference for others to use.
This is just a guess on my part, but the shims probably vary from one starter to the next. They were probably there to achieve a certain amount of end-play. The shims required for each starter could be different due to manufacturing tolerance stack-up. I just measured the thickness of the one that had split, and got a new one the same thickness. I put it in and re-used the others that were in there.

Ray
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'm likely just going to use the shims form this one and the rest of it as spare parts for whatever used one I find to replace it. Good to have options.
 
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