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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi.

I've been posting about this bike for a bit now and received some solid advice here and there. I figured it was now time to consolidate my posts to a single thread, as much as possible.

I have done a lot so far, including rebuilding the front end with new forks and handlebars from ebay. The main obstacle that I have been trying to overcome has been a bad starter clutch; which is mostly documented herehttp://www.hondatwins.net/forums/42-electrical-discussion/96089-1970-cl175-starter-only-occasionally-turns-motor-over-otherwise-spins-freely-2.html

At this point I have reassembled the bike to the point where I may be able to try and start it soon. In rebuilding the starter clutch I found one spring-loaded cap to be stuck in the "in" position. I replaced all three springs and caps. I then replaced all the side cover gaskets and screws, and filled with new oil in anticipation of a running the starter.

Now, I finally get to press the starter button, and the result is the same as before. As far as I can tell, I reassembled the starter clutch perfectly. However I can hear the starter chain slapping around wildly, and it only turns the motor over about 10% of the time. Some times the starter motor spins so freely without noise that I think it must be going backwards. Other times it sounds like the starter chain is tearing my bike apart from the inside. and then the odd time, it turns the bike over.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
AH, another detail which I forgot to mention. I was reading another thread on this subject where someone said that they had installed the starter motor sprocket backwards. It is possible that I did that. If you look at the photo above, the small sprocket was installed such that the shaft was flush with the outside of the sprocket. However looking at the CMSNL pics, they show it flipped. I installed it how I saw it when I took the covers off. maybe PO also made this mistake?


Also, The larger chainring that is part of the assembly that I rebuilt with the rollers, does have some in and out play on the shaft. If that normal? I remember thinking that that must be what the retaining clip was for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok, got back from vacation today and took things apart to see what was going on in there. What I found is that the starter is able to turn the rotor about 50% of the time. The horrible grinding noise is from the starter chain hitting...everything. It hits the top of the case, the bottom of the case, the chain stay, everything. It's slapping away good in there. And when it does slap something, it tends to make the rotor skip loose and stop turning.


Here's the chain at rest.
IMG_5678.jpg

and here is how much I can deflect it with my finger (top)
IMG_5679.jpg
(and bottom)
IMG_5681.jpg

So, it's obviously stretched out a bit, yeah? here it is with a ruler for reference. Anyone know the right length? I'm going to try and source a new one now.
IMG_5688.jpg

Ok so chain stuff aside, I took the rotor apart to look at the rollers. To me, they all look the same, and look like they poke out the right amount. I reassembled it and got a tiny bit better success rate (maybe 60%). The longer you sustain the starter motor though, the rotor will eventually skip off and stop spinning. I'm thinking that it's possible that the loose chain may not be putting consistent enough pressure to keep the rollers engaged?

I have searched and found NOS chains for $40, and used ones for $15. I would like to find out the normal length if possible. Seems odd that mine would stretch enough to collide with everything in the case. perhaps an incorrect part was installed by a PO?
 

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Ok, got back from vacation today and took things apart to see what was going on in there. What I found is that the starter is able to turn the rotor about 50% of the time. The horrible grinding noise is from the starter chain hitting...everything. It hits the top of the case, the bottom of the case, the chain stay, everything. It's slapping away good in there. And when it does slap something, it tends to make the rotor skip loose and stop turning.


Here's the chain at rest.
View attachment 219593

and here is how much I can deflect it with my finger (top)
View attachment 219601
(and bottom)
View attachment 219609

So, it's obviously stretched out a bit, yeah? here it is with a ruler for reference. Anyone know the right length? I'm going to try and source a new one now.
View attachment 219617

Ok so chain stuff aside, I took the rotor apart to look at the rollers. To me, they all look the same, and look like they poke out the right amount. I reassembled it and got a tiny bit better success rate (maybe 60%). The longer you sustain the starter motor though, the rotor will eventually skip off and stop spinning. I'm thinking that it's possible that the loose chain may not be putting consistent enough pressure to keep the rollers engaged?

I have searched and found NOS chains for $40, and used ones for $15. I would like to find out the normal length if possible. Seems odd that mine would stretch enough to collide with everything in the case. perhaps an incorrect part was installed by a PO?
Buy a new one and know that it is the right length.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I asked an ebay seller to measure their part for comparison and they replied that their chain measured 8 1/2". That would be 1/16" or 1/8" overall LONGER in length than mine. That's odd.. Still waiting on the reply of two other sellers with identical items.

update, found one NOS for $21.50! woo!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Today I got the NOS starting chain. I installed it and it improved the clutch engagement, to the point where there is about 90% success when running the starter. This is good news. It also no longer slaps the case, except when the clutch slips and the motor stops turning. At that point the starting chain will hit the retaining clip for the large sprocket. I have asked around on different forums:

is it normal for the large sprocket to have some in-and-out play? I can push and pull it about 1/8" when the whole assembly is together. At first I assumed this was normal because there was a retaining clip there seemingly for that purpose.

Since I am still having about 10% failure rate with the clutch, I took it apart and 1/3 of my rollers was not snapping out as easily as the others. I was able to narrow it down thru process of elimination and found the bad one with quite a few flat spots. Not sure how that affects the ability to glide about, but I have purchased a set of 3 NOS rollers to hopefully get my starter clutch to 100%
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
During this time I was also able to fix my horn button (it was hooked up so that turning the key on would cause the horn to beep the entire time it was on). I also remedially set the timing by hand, considering that the timing mark is not on the bike at the moment and i was not able to run the starter, Will improve it once the starter is at 100% and I am able to put oil in the bike and turn it over lots and lots.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry this thread has been a little light on the pictures. Maybe that's because I'm hardly making any progress.. lol

tonight I took off the rear fender and got the whole assembly taken down. I'm going to be borrowing a hacksaw and drill soon (hopefully) and I will be able to modify my broken rear fender into something streamlined that I can attach a smaller aftermarket light to. I've ordered the $30 emgo lucas light from amazon, we'll see how that turns out!

For fun I decided to throw on the "cafe" seat that my buddy left lying around while I had the seat off.
IMG_5770.jpg

Oh! I forgot to mention, got both of the brakes hooked up and adjusted tonight, so I spent about 15 minutes running and pushing the bike as fast as I could in the garage, then hopping on the seat mid jog, to slam on the brakes and see what they could do. Not bad!
 

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Today I got the NOS starting chain. I installed it and it improved the clutch engagement, to the point where there is about 90% success when running the starter. This is good news. It also no longer slaps the case, except when the clutch slips and the motor stops turning. At that point the starting chain will hit the retaining clip for the large sprocket. I have asked around on different forums:

is it normal for the large sprocket to have some in-and-out play? I can push and pull it about 1/8" when the whole assembly is together. At first I assumed this was normal because there was a retaining clip there seemingly for that purpose.

Since I am still having about 10% failure rate with the clutch, I took it apart and 1/3 of my rollers was not snapping out as easily as the others. I was able to narrow it down thru process of elimination and found the bad one with quite a few flat spots. Not sure how that affects the ability to glide about, but I have purchased a set of 3 NOS rollers to hopefully get my starter clutch to 100%
You should replace the springs and caps while you're there - replacing the rollers by themselves probably won't be enough, or might not last. The rollers are the least likely problem with these clutches, the tension of the springs is suspect with age and the caps can have the ends pop off as well. Cheap insurance, and the chain is also the least likely to be a problem despite having visible slack. rare to see a chain so badly stretched that it's unusable
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the response. It was getting a bit lonely in here. I actually replaced the caps and springs first. When I did that, I found that one cap/spring was stuck in its hole causing that roller to be useless. I replaced them all and it only improved the starting motor turn-over success rate from 1% to about 10%. I had no idea the rollers could wear and affect the performance at that time. I found that the chain had been slapping A LOT once I ran the starter with the case open and watched it (I had not thought to do that until it had been suggested in this thread). I actually found last night that the part of the gasket that's near when the chain was slapping was a bit chewed up from the chain.

Replacing the chain improved the starter's ability from 10% to about 90%. The slack in the chain was most likely giving inconsistent tension, giving the clutch opportunities to slip. Now I'm hoping that replacing the flat-spotted rollers can get me to 100%.

Still no one able to weigh in on the play in the main sprocket? It would be nice to find out i'm missing a spacer before I put the case back together and throw oil in it,... :confused:
 

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Still no one able to weigh in on the play in the main sprocket? It would be nice to find out i'm missing a spacer before I put the case back together and throw oil in it,... :confused:
Did you remove the assembly from the back of the alternator rotor to inspect it? Sometimes the housing for the springs/caps can get cracked and if so, it has to be replaced as it allows too much slop in the distance between the roller ramps and the center surface of the sprocket assembly, which can allow slippage even with all other parts new. Otherwise, I can't imagine any slippage with rollers, springs and caps replaced. As for movement in and out, not sure what the spec would be (or if it's even in the FSM, nothing in my 450 manual about it) but since the surface the rollers grab is machined all the way across, some in and out movement wouldn't be an issue in an otherwise serviceable situation. As for a missing spacer - check cmsnl.com again and look for one, I can't recall ever seeing one behind it
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
edit: I forgot to say before that yes, I have had a good look at the thin backing plate that the rollers slide against. I actually took a scotchbrite and was able to smooth out a few scratches that may have been causing friction with the rollers. otherwise the plate looks good.

Here's the problem with cmsnl in this case. They show the sprocket as part of the starter motor schematic with no spacer or bearing shown. Then the crankshaft and neutral switch schematics also also show nothing. So I would assume there is no spacer or part that i'm missing.

honda-cl175-scrambler-1970-k4-usa-starting-motor_bigma000160e12_35a6.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
As of last night the starter motor was turning over with 100% success. Lesson in all of this is to replace the whole assembly at once - caps, springs, rollers. The chain helped a lot in my case but I'm not sure if that was less common to have a stretched chain.

With the starter motor working I decided I could put the covers back on and start to move toward starting the bike. However in putting the cover on I accidentally caused one of the bottom holes to strip. I'm not sure how bad it is. I believe that I may have accidentally used too short a screw for that hole, and while screwing it in with the impact driver, I was only grabbing 2 threads or so, and pulled those out. Tonight I will be testing with a longer screw to see if I can still get purchase on those threads, and if so I will get a longer screw to replace. Otherwise I will be coming back here for possible fixes.

I'm hoping to get this bike running for a trip that I'm taking after christmas. If I can have it running well enough by Decemeber 28th I will be in good shape. So far what I've done since purchasing the bike:

First step was getting it to turn over. It was locked up when I got it and 24 hours of mm oil did the trick.

Second was title transfer and collector plates. Tried to use an old plate but got turned away.

Did an oil change.

Checked for spark and changed plugs. Tried starting it and discovered the problem with the starter clutch.

Been working on the starter clutch for a LONG time. In the meantime I:

Completely rebuild the front end with new forks and one new fork ear. New garters.

New handlebars and grips (old bars were bent and grips wouldn't come off). This involved resoldering a few connections in the controls.

Cleaned the tank (twice) and rebuit the petcock with a kit from 4into1. New fuel lines and inline filters.

Got a new battery and juiced it up.

Rebuilt the air filters ala Richard from the forum here, using a heat gun to get the paper out and replacing it with UNI foam.

Rebuilt and tuned carbs with a rebuild kit from 4into1. I've since read that the jets may not be great but I have the old ones if that turns out to be the case. The kit came with new floats which I did need so it was a very good bargain if it all works out.

Cleaned the exterior of the engine and the side covers inside and out, and installed new gaskets on newly clean surfaces (I hope).

Cleaned and rebuilt points.

What I need to do before the 28th:

Fix the new problem with the possibly stripped screw on the left side cover.

Clean the chrome on the exhaust as best as I can and install them with new gaskets (and rebuild the whole left side of the bike, so it goes with the CL)

Fill with new oil and use electric start to get timing as close as possible before allowing fuel into the carbs

Oil the new air filters

Install a new brake light I have received and (if there's there's time) get the brake light to actually work when brakes are applied.

Source and install a new front fender (old one was twisted).

Inflate tires

Attempt to start the bike. See what happens.
 

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Sounds like good progress.

Impact screwdriver - fine for getting screws undone, but not really a good idea (IMHO) to tighten case screws with it. I'd just use a hand held JIS screwdriver.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Sounds like good progress.

Impact screwdriver - fine for getting screws undone, but not really a good idea (IMHO) to tighten case screws with it. I'd just use a hand held JIS screwdriver.
I was worried I'd get a leak if I didn't torque them down hard enough... found out how hard is too hard. I tested with a longer screw last night and confirmed that a longer screw can gain purchase in the hole. So it's not totally stripped. I bought a slightly longer panhead screw (the next size up in the NOS honda screw kit was too long, would get to the end of the threads before it butted up against the case). I also got a couple washers to use as spaces with the NOS screw, so I have two options. Will try tonight and see what happens.

I am also working on rebuilding the rear fender into something more streamlined. The fender was broken when I got it so I'm not breaking any rules, tho. Got a small Lucas style tail light and last night I bought the nuts and bolts needed to hook it all up. The Emgo brand light only has two wires coming out, black and red, with no ground I assume. So if anyone knows what I need to do to make that work, I'd appreciate the input.
 

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You can often catch good remaining threads deeper in the case in your situation by using a slightly longer screw - just be careful that it doesn't bottom out before actually tightening down properly. I bought this t-handle below as a backup to my 40+ year old Vessel t-handle with #3 JIS tip. When working with the JIS-head screws in Honda crankcase covers, a t-handle works great. An impact driver should only be used for removal of stubborn screws. The leverage you can get with a t-handle generates plenty of tightness for case screws

https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-T-Handle-Cross-Head-08-0557/dp/B00M9IKK0Q
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have a pretty wide/dep bit that came with my manual impact driver, I use that and a little 5" socket wrench to turn screws in. It's almost JIS! haha

The difference in the screw that was too short and the screw that was too long is about 1/8". I bought what looked like the correct length panhead from the hardware store, only problem is the head is WAY bigger and pretty funky looking next to all my nice new honda screws. so my preferred option is going to be to use the screw which is 1.8" too long and make up the difference with either a 1/8" jam nut, or 2 small fender washers. I bought both at the hardware store last night so that I would have the option of either. I am a little concerned about the clearance around the head the screw allowing the washers or nut to fit against the case. but we will see!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I was able to button it up with the slightly longer honda screw and two washers. Also got the exhaust back on my 750 with new copper gaskets and went for a ride for the first time in about a week. So that was nice. I also got my new light installed. I went to attempt to do the timing, but I wasn't able to get a spark on either side. Last week, when i had my old stock tail light on, I was getting a strong spark on both sides. Now I have none. Is it possible for a bad ground or lack thereof to stop the spark?

based on the wiring diagram that I got here, there are three connections needing grounds. I attempted to address all of them.

CL175WiringDiagram.jpg

What I'm seeing from the pic is that brown and green with stripe should be going to the brake light (brown to red, green stripe to black).

right now my set up is like this:


three black wires with ends for making grounds, connected to the 4-way green wire coming from the main loom. the end with connections for ground are connected to various parts of the frame.

the orange and blue wires for the blinkers are just sitting there with nothing connected.

the brown and green/yellow stripe wires are attached to the brake light.

there is a green wire that i believe was grounded at the battery. I grounded that one too. I can't locate it on the wiring diagram, though.

my brake light is also not illuminating when the key is turned on. so I am wondering if a lack of proper ground can cause all this? or if it's somethin else.
 
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