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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok so lead acid batteries, great, heavy, don't hold a charge for that long, expensive-ish to replace..... Ballistic lithium ion batteries, holds a charge, runs at a little higher voltage.. more or a pain due to balancing the cells....

SO, i've already run through an expensive ballistic lithium ion battery, the EVO2 (4cell), which worked find with my CB350, as long as I kept it balanced and charged, however, one of the cells crapped out on me, so now i have to spend another 120 for a new one????

I wanted to find a better solution so I did some research... I found the Vruzend DIY battery kit. This allows my build whatever size battery I want (to fit in tight, cafe racer places). So my plan was to double my (4s) 4cell (build an 8 cell, still 4s), and have it still fit in the same compartment as the EVO2 4 cell. I went ahead and bought the kit, and also got the 4s BMS board to throw in there as well.

Why tha hell am I doing all this? Weeeelll, The battery kit costs $39, but allows me to switch out the cells if they go bad! Instead of buying a whole new battery, i can find a few cells online for a fraction of the price, and simply install it in place of the shot cell.

Has anyone used these kits or tried this on a motorcycle? I know they use em for Ebikes n stuff, but seems like a pretty cool solution to having a small, fixable, dynamic battery!

Any issues come to mind with this kind of setup?


https://vruzend.com/
https://vruzend.com/product/4s-battery-management-system-bms/

All comments appreciated! Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Says 16.8v charging voltage, but doesn’t give max min. That spec would be helpfull.

Sure, but won't the regulator keep it around 12-14 or so....

A few more facts: Not using any stock anything. WHen running there might be one LED on, and brake LED, but nothing else. Also not using starter motor, its kick only.

16.8 (At max) is more than enough wiggle room to charge them right? DO you mean that it won't charge it it's under 16.8?

Thank you for your time;)
 

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max charging for an 18650 cell is 4.2 volts. If you are using eight of them t should be a 4S2P pack. That would be a 16.8V max and nominal 14.8v. Sony 18650 cells can be discharged to 2.5v without damage, but I wouldn't take them below about 3.2v. A 4S2P pack of these cells should be able to put out about 20A. That might be a little light to run the starter motor. The problem in a Honda twin application is the charger current control.
These cells should work fine in a motorcycle application. In fact many new curret bikes have Li-ion batteries. Charging is voltage control like lead acid batteries. The exception with Li-ion is trickle charge. When the battery reaches 4.2v per cell the charge voltage must go to zero. The charger must have circuitry that senses the battery charge state and cuts it off. The other issue is the charge rate. Every Li-ion cell has a maximum charge rate. If any of the specifications are exceeded, the cell will have a shortened life.
This may be the best solution for you cafe application, but I would never trust the setup to ride any where you would need to wait a long time for a tow truck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Slow down just a little, i know you're all about new tech on the best vintage combo you can build, but we need the maximum and minimum charging voltage specifications for these batteries. Please supply accurate specifications, links to manufacturers' websites would be very useful too. Please don't mix your facts with suppositions and questions. Also good sentence structure will help convey your thoughts clearly. This is an engineering question, this is not a shade-tree solution. Improper charging voltages to any battery will have consequences. Knowing, and wisely managing all of the variables will keep the battery operating safely.
Allen, "these batteries" vary in capacity and some in voltage. I am talking about 18650 batteries, and i've already posted some links to the website, as well as the link to the actual BMS that I am using. I have not supplied information about the actual cell i will be using because I wanted to learn about it here. Looks like Jim managed to understand my suppositions and questions, in fact he even supplied useful information!

This is indeed an engineering questions, and I would assume someone of your seniority (on this forum) would know a little about engineering. Hence me asking this forum a little about engineering. Not many dare to venture in new territory, and given the amount of opportunity in new tech, I don't see why. I'm not knocking old engineering, in fact I am building another 350 to factory specs.

mmk, back to batteries, thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Jim, thank you for all the information, I am absorbing it the best I can. I understand one runs a bit of a risk when using 18650's. Any idea how Ballistic Batteries (EVO series) and some other companies manage to pull this off? All i'm trying to attempt is to break down these other batteries and find a way to replace dead parts without replacing the whole battery, etc.....

Thanks Jim!
 

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Jim, thank you for all the information, I am absorbing it the best I can. I understand one runs a bit of a risk when using 18650's. Any idea how Ballistic Batteries (EVO series) and some other companies manage to pull this off? All i'm trying to attempt is to break down these other batteries and find a way to replace dead parts without replacing the whole battery, etc.....

Thanks Jim!
Any charging system designed for lead acid batteries will eat any type of Li-ion battery. Lead acid batteries will lose charge over time. They must be trickle charged. The regulator/ rectifiers on our bikes do not measure the battery's state of charge and are not capable of turning off the charge. Somebody might make a regulator rectifier that can be used with the stock alternator to safely charge Li-ion batteries.
 

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FWIW, I have a 4ah lithium ion in my 450 with stock stator and an Oregon Cycle rec/reg (was already on the bike at purchase) and in a fair amount of riding over the last 2 years (about 1200 miles), it's been fine
 

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For LI-ION, charging does not need to be shut off when it reaches a certain voltage, it just needs to not exceed the voltage rating for the cells.

The Sparck Moto R/R is compatible with LI-ON technology.

Also, the DIY approach to LI-ION is something I had definitely considered, but the consequences of failure with LI-ION technology can be pretty bad. I decided it wasn't worth the risk and I do electronics professionally.

Finally, 18650 batteries are LiFePO4, which are not compatible with that BMS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
For LI-ION, charging does not need to be shut off when it reaches a certain voltage, it just needs to not exceed the voltage rating for the cells.

The Sparck Moto R/R is compatible with LI-ON technology.

Also, the DIY approach to LI-ION is something I had definitely considered, but the consequences of failure with LI-ION technology can be pretty bad. I decided it wasn't worth the risk and I do electronics professionally.

Finally, 18650 batteries are LiFePO4, which are not compatible with that BMS.


Yea over it. going to go with a small lead acid.... cuz... lithium is getting more and more annoying. But are you sure all 18650 batteries are LiFep04?
This is the exact battery i was going to use:

LG M26 M26S 18650 3.6V 2600mAh 10A power battery cheap price for EV / E-bike/ E-scooter-Shenzhen Geegood Technology Co., Ltd

I believe they are not lifep04...... but i could be wrong..?
 

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FWIW, I have a 4ah lithium ion in my 450 with stock stator and an Oregon Cycle rec/reg (was already on the bike at purchase) and in a fair amount of riding over the last 2 years (about 1200 miles), it's been fine
Tom, Li-ion batteries for classic motorcycles have built in control circuitry for charging. The internal resistance in lead acid batteries increases during charging and the individual cells will self balance over time. The internal resistance of Li-ion batteries decreases during charging and the cells will not self balance. If the series set of Li-ion cells are charged together, as in a 4S2P pack that Dmoto is suggesting, individual cells will short out and burn up. Hobby LiPo packs have a charge lead and discharge lead. Li-ion (LiPo included) must be charged with a balanced (controlled) charger.
 

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For LI-ION, charging does not need to be shut off when it reaches a certain voltage, it just needs to not exceed the voltage rating for the cells.

The Sparck Moto R/R is compatible with LI-ON technology.

Also, the DIY approach to LI-ION is something I had definitely considered, but the consequences of failure with LI-ION technology can be pretty bad. I decided it wasn't worth the risk and I do electronics professionally.

Finally, 18650 batteries are LiFePO4, which are not compatible with that BMS.
There are many different 18650 battery chemistries out there. LiFePO4 is one of them and it is Lithium Iron Phosphate. This is one of the most stable of the Li-ion chemistries, but it also is the lowest C rated outputs.
 

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Yea over it. going to go with a small lead acid.... cuz... lithium is getting more and more annoying. But are you sure all 18650 batteries are LiFep04?
This is the exact battery i was going to use:

LG M26 M26S 18650 3.6V 2600mAh 10A power battery cheap price for EV / E-bike/ E-scooter-Shenzhen Geegood Technology Co., Ltd

I believe they are not lifep04...... but i could be wrong..?
I have a full size AGM in my CB450K5 and love it. It doesn't bleed down like the old lead acids and they last a lot longer.
 

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Great information Jim, you've clearly spent significantly more research time on them than I did. Based on what I read, I was rolling the dice on my combo because I wasn't sure of the output of my system-rec/reg as it was on the running bike I bought and almost immediately disassembled. To be honest, I didn't think to verify with a meter that it even charged at all, though it did pass the cursory brightness increase test when I bought it. Got lucky and the Oregon Cycle unit runs things at 13.5 to 13.6 virtually all the time, plus that battery stays up for ridiculously long periods with no tender necessary.
 
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