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Sensei
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HerrDeacon recently mentioned a modification to the "kill" switch circuit....The "Wired George Coil Mod" I believe it was called.....
I understand HOW it works, but can't understand WHY anyone would do it....
It seems to me that installing ANOTHER electrical component that uses CONSTANT DRAW on an electrical system that is nominal at best would be counterproductive.
IF, (after the mod), the "kill" switch now energises a relay that Connects power to the coils, the system will still open (fail) if the "kill" switch isn't working properly...Plus, the additional Draw of the relay's coil will ADD more burden (albeit slight) to an already overtaxed battery/charging system....
Wouldn't simply rewiring from the battery, through the "kill" switch to the coils with heavier gauge wire be simpler, easier, and more efficient?..... Somebody PLEASE explain/justify this modification logicly for me.... I don't "get" it!!!!! :? Steve
 

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I don't have a clue about electrical "stuff" but I'll give you my explanation of the mod.

Basically, it allows you to get more power to the coils, that is being robbed by our thirty year old connections, switches and wires. By bypassing the kill switch you are bypassing some of these areas. The problem with a lower current going to the coils is that is leads to issues that are often misdiagnosed as carb problems like sooty plugs and conditions that look like your running rich. If you test the power getting to your coils now, and it's not close to the power at the battery then its getting lost somewhere along the way through the old wires and connections. If you are getting good power, you don't really need to do it.

Also, WiredGeorge works on carbs as his profession and I believe he wanted to ensure his customers were not wasting their money by getting him to fix the carbs when it really is just a electrical issue. He is a very standup guy and really knows his carbs. He has a forum on his site if anyone needs some technical help. He helped my diagnose and fix the cold starting issue I had.

Steve, I think if you do as you suggested (heavy gauge wire through kill switch) you'd accomplish the same thing, its just that this mod doesn't involve disassembling the handlebar controls to do it. This makes it a bit easier to a lot of people, especially when your wires go through the bars like they do on my KZ.

I've done it on my KZ and it definitely increased the power at the coils. I can't remember the exact numbers but it went up and there is very little loss now between the current at the battery and the coils. Since then the bike starts much easier and runs better. It is always a very highly recommended mod on the KZ forums.

Not sure if this makes a case for it or not :)
 

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Sensei
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I appreciate your lengthened explaination, but still can't see the advantage. You are NOT "bypassing" the "kill switch, you are re-purposing it...The "kill" switch (which is often problematic on the older bikes) is still involved, Its "dirty, original connections and old wiring" are still being used (which means ZERO increase in reliability), and the newly installed relay's internal coil is ALSO now CONTINUOUSLY drawing power while the bike is turned "on", effectively reducing the amount of amps "left" available (in the battery) to "run" the bike...... ALL the "increased power at the coils" is due to the heavier wiring running to the coils.... the relay has NOTHING to do with that other than acting as a remote switch...ANY switch wired with heavier gauge wiring would achieve the identical result.... (and not add draw)....
So, you have a great connection to the coils that "Shunts" (bypasses) the rest of the bike's wiring, but REDUCES available amperage to the rest of the bike's systems, including (on bikes with "excited" alternators like the KZ's) the charging system.....
The lesser amount of current exciting the electromagnet in the alternator theoretically would produce lesser amounts of power to re-charge the battery.... However, that isn't how electrical components work....The "exciter" and the other components will still draw whatever amperage they need to operate, stressing the battery and depleting it faster....
(The additional "stress" ultimately will result in shorter battery life-span).....
How is this an improvement?... The heavier wiring I get, the relay to do it, not so much........
 

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Sensei
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Rod... If you want more water, you put in bigger piping....
My point is the heavier wiring provides the reduction in resistance...NOT the relay... On these bikes where changing out incandescents to LED's is almost a requirement with the lights-on ALL the time laws, Why add usage when it's unnecessary to do so?
The relay is simply used because someone is too lazy to upgrade to heavier wire and rewire the circuit properly (too much work involved)
A heavy-duty SPST toggle and shorter and/or heavier wires would do the same thing WITHOUT additional current draw (no matter how minimal)......(If you MUST avoid the work......)
To quote you, " Ok the main issue is resistance at the original switch/wire, which will reduce the amps required at the coils. "
The coils amperage requirements don't change......I trust you meant available, not required....

"the drain on the system from this relay is marginal and will in fact liberate power that is not being drained by the old switch/wire. "....
How?...The old switch wires are still being used to operate the relay?....And the "drain", however marginal, is still additional to the original system.....

????????
 

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66Sprint said:
I assume by "increased power at the coils" and "current at the battery and coils", you mean voltage, not amperage....
Yes, voltage.

As for the rest of your argument, I can't even begin to really comment as I have little to no knowledge of electrical and charging systems. :( However, from a layman's view of it, you're not really stressing the system much further, only the tiny bit that is powering the relay. Isn't the extra voltage your getting to the coils basically "free", as you are now not wasting (i.e. losing) power by going through the old wiring?

Not to argue with you, but just to play devils advocate, the improvement for me would be a better starting, smoother running bike and less plug fouling. If this reduces the battery life span then thats ok with me. I'd rather have a well running bike and buy a battery more frequently than a poor running bike.
 

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Sensei
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, "power" available to the coils is increased by the heavier wiring....You are however STILL "wasting" the power going through the old wires as they now operate the relay, (so no "free" energy).... Now subtract the draw of the relays coil from total power available to operate the bike......net result= less available power overall....Additional components use additional power... It's that simple.....

Yes, it is probably worth the minor reduction in battery life.... I'm just argueing that there is a more electrically efficient way to accomplish it that doesn't adversly effect the battery (even minimally)......
 

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so here is my take on it. yes using the old wiring to power the relay is a waste but is very minimal. the relay draws hardley anything to run (amps) compared to the coils (going through the same old wiring). but if you wanted to maintain the org. look and funtion of the bike this relay would be a solution that could be hidden easily but to install a toggle switch that is hidden and easy to use would not be. if you do not care about the org. look of the bike than you are right the best thing to do is elimate any old wiring and put in the way you describe.
 

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I do have experience with ignition systems (my original vocation was to teach auto mechanics back when they had points and carburetors) and electrical systems (my first military assingment was as an airborne radar repairman then aircraft electrician) so I understand the conversation here.

The issue is how do you get the highest VOLTAGE at the battery terminals on the coils. You can only do this by increasing the voltage of the supply system, reducing the resistance in the circuit that supplies them, or reducing other loads on the supply system (like the lights).

Since I don't have the specifications for the system I cannot tell you what the voltage at the coils should be but I would expect it to be very near the voltage at the battery, although some systems use a resistor reducing this value significantly. Perhaps one of our resident experts could shed some light on this.

The suggested remote relaly system would only increase that voltage if it eliminated excessive resistance caused by bad wiring/connections or bad switch contacts in the original system. Since the power requirement of the relaly would be much less than that of the coils it is possible that a compromised kill switch could provide enough power to energize the relay but have enough resistance to reduce the performance of the coils. Thus it is possible to increase the load on the total system (addition of the relay coil) and increase the voltage at the coils (reduced resistance in the circuit supplying the coils) IF this does not exceed the output capacity of the generating system.

I agree with 66sprint that the better course would be to clean the connections in the system and (if you can get at them) to clean the contacts in the kill switch or replace it. Assuming the original wiring was adequate to supply the system switching to a heavier wire really won't gain you anything.

Every time you add a component to any system it provides one more opportunity for something to go wrong.
 

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Sensei
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Eric... My point was that just wiring the existing parts with heavier wire would work as well (or better) and not be noticable/possibly not detectable .......It's just a lot of work.... Guess I answered my own question there....... :(

J-T.... I Love that quote...."Every time you add a component to any system it provides one more opportunity for something to go wrong."... :D
However, manufacturing being for profit, I believe a slightly larger gauge wire is a good idea too.... I'm sure the smallest gauge wire that was nominally adequate was specified and used to cut manufacturing costs.... Steve
 

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Steve wrote:

However, manufacturing being for profit, I believe a slightly larger gauge wire is a good idea too.... I'm sure the smallest gauge wire that was nominally adequate was specified and used to cut manufacturing costs.... Steve

Point taken, Steve. If you're in there anyway, heavier wire is a cheap addition.
 
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