Honda Twins banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys as I have posted before my dad's CL350 is not starting, after I had been on a short ~10 mile ride it would not start after I stopped for lunch. Actually, it fired about two times and then never again.

Well I got some great advice in another thread and I decided to check on the points cover today, and it has been coated on the inside with some kind of grey/black stuff that I assume was to prevent a short on the inside of the cover. I looked at the cam lobe on the ignition (actually just a magnet in this case), and it had some light scratching on it. I took off the ignition (charlie's place), and there was a corresponding mark on the receiver. I was able to wipe the marks off with my finger.

IMG_5943.jpg

IMG_5942.jpg

I kicked it over a bit and noticed that the cam lobe/magnet thing (the orange thing) wasn't spinning in a perfect circle. Almost like the camshaft end was very slightly bent. I'm not sure if this is the case or if it's a result of the problem that I found....

Once the ignition plate was off I noticed that the advancer arms weren't springing closed. I also noticed that I could turn the advancer by hand very easily. So I pulled the plate off and found that the indexing mark on the advancer plate had blown wide open.

IMG_5945.jpg

The little thing in the foreground goes into the end of the camshaft and acts as an indexer for the advancer plate, I'm assuming. There is a corresponding hole for it in the end of the camshaft but I couldn't fit in because it was too small to handle.

It looks like step one is going to be to acquire a new advancer plate, or maybe the whole thing. whatever's cheaper. Then, with that correctly installed, hopefully the cam lobe/magnet thing will no longer scrape the ignition.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,006 Posts
I'll try to look for the post about it but there is also a SHIM behind the Advance Plate that can allow the Points CAM or in your case with the Charlie's Place Ignition the Part with the Trigger Magnet to rotate in an ellipse (IE: NOT a circle).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
If you can find that I'd appreciate it. I've found some nice advance plates for $40 on ebay. I'm hoping that the elliptical movement was due to the advance having no index mark to keep it straight.

edit: just to be clear, I want the shim? and it prevents the elliptical motion? Do you know what part it is?

honda-cl350-scrambler-1973-k5-usa-cylinder-head-side-coverpointsadvancer_bighu0059e5002_5870.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,537 Posts
I do not know the Charlie's Place ignition system. From reading your post, you stated the mechanical advance arms were not springing closed and I will assume they are stuck in the full advance position. This will clearly prevent the bike from starting and running well below 3,000 RPM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
You do know that the orange thing is the magnet for this ign system and the 2 black stationery parts are the sensors. The part diagram shows the POINTS ignition system.

The part number 11 in the diagram is a good accurate slide on fit to the cam shaft "stub", the thinish section part of the cam shaft sticking out of the engine, with a threaded hole for the bolt part number 13/12 washer, and dowel/pin hole.

The small diameter pin on the saddle fits into the hole in the cam shaft end and drives the cam assembly via the cam plate cut out/slot.

When fitted and bolted up tight ( don't shear that 10mm af 6mm bolt !!! 6 lbs feet torque but check in manual !!!! ) the actual "cam" should rotate in direction of rotation acting against the centrifugal weights and springs freely, and return to its "static" unadvanced position freely, returned via the springs.

This is the centrifugal ignition advance system.

You know how to time the base plate, and are aware of the cam plate correct position ?

How does the camshaft "stub" rotate when the engine is turned over, elliptical or true ??

Perhaps a poor fitment was made during re assembly and this has bent the cam base plate ??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,458 Posts
Or another possibility is that the springs on your base plate have worn out and need to be replaced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I believe the springs are worn. I ordered a very nice looking advance from ebay that I hope will have better springs. Tonight I will have to look and see how the camshaft stub looks when it rotates. Besides the weak springs, the problem with my advance was that the indexing stud basically ripped a hole in the advance plate so it was able to spin freely. The only thing making the advance spin was the friction on the cam shaft.

It's possible that I removed the advance when setting the timing and failed to install it correctly. Or maybe I never took it off the camshaft. I only remember taking off the magnet and inspecting it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I got the new advance today and i'm currently trying to install it. I cannot get the small indexing thing to fit in it's hole, though. It's about the size of a grain or rice ,and it's very hard to handle as a result. you can see it #12 in this drawing, " knock pin." sorry i am not sure why my cmsnl pics always upload so small. but it's the fiche for the camshaft and it shows the part I am struggling with.

honda-cl350-scrambler-1973-k5-usa-camshaftvalve_bighu0059e5003_6ca2.jpg

Anyone know of an easier way to get it in? right now i'm just fumbling around with my finger because its too small even for pliers. the hole seems too small to take it.

IMG_5962.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sorry for the tantrum, I ended up grabbing a hammer and a screwdriver and getting it in. Now i'm on the hunt for the advance bolt torque setting...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,510 Posts
It looks like the pins seat is damaged. If it giggles or comes loose then your timing will be allover the place. Better make sure it's secure.
The advance bolt should be snug so it doesn't fall off or loosen. No torque wrench. You'll see, if you put too much torque the cam will spin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I tightened it until the cam spun and stopped. Not I'm on the ignition, setting the timing. I was able to set the timing no problem before this all happened, when the bike started up fine and ran.

Now, I'm trying to set the timing and the left is so far advanced that I have set the left receiver all the way forward (counter clockwise). So the Left is firing right on the LF mark. However, that makes the right so far retarded that even if i move it all the way the other way (clockwise) It's still very very behind the F mark.

IMG_5963.jpg

Is it possible that this could be cause by my putting the magnet on 180* off? That's all I can think of. I was able to set the timing before so I know it's not the ignition being wrong, somehow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/at...e-coverpointsadvancer_bighu0059e5002_5870.jpg

Notice where the points "heels" are, assume the "sensors" are the points heels.

you did say that you had removed the "orange cam".

Treat the engine as a 125 single, left piston, set to "F" and match the left sensor to suit. The other should "fall into place" as it where.

You sure you have the orange cam in the correct place relative to the "pinned plate" ?

The orange cam needs to rotate on the camshaft against and being returned by the springs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The orange cam/magnet is installed on the advance so that it can rotate counter clockwise against the springs, and is returned by the springs.

I set the timing much like you suggest, I set the Left timing on the LF mark, by rotating the whole ignition plate (counterclockwise). Once Left cylinder was firing right on the LF, I went to the right cylinder, on the F mark. However it was almost a full 15* late to spark. There is not room to adjust that far.

I could have installed the orange cam 180* off. I could also be setting on the exhaust stroke, if the cam is 180 off, I suppose?

I have checked and the advance plate is securely locked in place by the indexing stud in the camshaft.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Just rewatched the charlie's place timing video. Turns out the left receiver is on the top in my photo :confused:

we need a dunce hat smiley
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I was able to get it timed but stripped the cheap metal of the charlie's place ignition plate... gotta go get a slightly less tiny screw in the morning and see if i can thread it in.

After that dad's picking it up whether it runs or not. I feel bad, but it'll be out of my hands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
I got the new advance today and i'm currently trying to install it. I cannot get the small indexing thing to fit in it's hole, though. It's about the size of a grain or rice ,and it's very hard to handle as a result. you can see it #12 in this drawing, " knock pin." sorry i am not sure why my cmsnl pics always upload so small. but it's the fiche for the camshaft and it shows the part I am struggling with.

View attachment 231281

Anyone know of an easier way to get it in? right now i'm just fumbling around with my finger because its too small even for pliers. the hole seems too small to take it.

View attachment 231289
On the CMS fiche pages, there is a link at botton right of the pic that allows you to open a bigger image of the parts. Open this, take a screen shot and you have a much better view of things.

Sean
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top