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Discussion Starter #1
I finally got the bike running and now I'd like ot get it moving - but I cannot get the clutch to disengage.

I had the clutch out and cleaned it all up, so I doubt the discs & plates are stuck together. The lift mechanism was similarly cleaned and greased - ball bearing in place.

To adjust I did the following:

  1. At engine end, screwed adjuster nut all the way in.
  2. At handlebar, set the adjuster half way out.
  3. Loosened the lock nut and screwed the worm all the way clockwise - it didn't actually move very much, maybe 1/8 turn max - and tightened the lock nut
At this point the clutch lever was at the perch and the cable quite tight. Pulling the lever felt like a clutch should, but did not disengage the clutch.

Then I tried:
  1. As above
  2. As above.
  3. Loosened nut and screwed the worm counter-clockwise - this time it turned maybe 3/8 revolution - and tightened locknut.
  4. This time lever was loose so I screwed out the adjuster at the case and then at the lever.
However now when pulling the lever it was very "light" and didn't feel like it was doing much of anything. Sure enough, no disengagement.

Either I am doing something fundamentally wrong, or there is something amiss at the lifter end or the clutch end.

If the former could someone please tell me what and give me an idiot's step-by-step guide to doing it right.

If the latter, what could it be? If I understand the operation correctly, the lifter rod (which moves freely in and out) pushes, against the springs, onto the pressure plate, allowing the discs and plates to separate. If the bolts on the springs are too tight, could it be that there the springs are already fully compressed and the pressure plate unable to move?

Any help appreciated.

Sean
 

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The clutch springs will bottom on the hub when tightened, before the springs are coil bound, just tighten them down. Slack off all the cable adjustment, then adjust the clutch lifter. All the way in then back out a little bit, for running clearance. Then adjust the cable adjuster(s) for the desired free-play. There is a raised dot on the sprocket cover that is aligned with a mark on the clutch lifter on initial assembly, that gets the worm in the right position. With the clutch adjusted correctly you should be able to get it to release by kicking the kick starter with the clutch lever pulled in.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Mike,

Thanks for that. So can the clutch lifter - is that the same as the "adjuster clutch" shown below as No 8?

Left Crankcase Cover.jpg

Is there only one way to fit this or can it be put in the wrong way?

Sean
 

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SEan,
I had the same problem with my 450 when I tried to get it going. It is important to get the plates and disks oiled. I wound up removing the right side crankcase cover so I could see the clutch move.
I suggest starting with the clutch cable. Set the clutch perch adjustment at about one half way. This allows adjustment + or - adjustment. Then screw the cable all the way in at the engine case. On the left cover loosen the clutch adjuster lock nut. Turn the adjuster (12) clockwise until you feel resistance. At this point all of the slack is taken up between the clutch adjuster and the clutch plate (7). Now turn the adjuster counter clockwise a slight amount to provide working clearance. Now tighten the lock nut. The next step is to adjust the clutch cable. At the engine end of the cable, turn the adjustment out until the clutch lever has 10-20 mm of play. I suggest keeping at the 20 mm end of the adjustment until it is running and you can fine tune it. If the cable is too tight it is possible for the lifter (11) to jump one thread in the adjuster (12). If this happens it will be necessary to readjust the adjuster and start over and you will need to leave a little more slack in this adjustment. The Honda clutch adjustment procedure is in the Honda Owners Manual.
You will still need to break the plates loose the first time. After I was sure the clutch linkage and clutch adjuster were correct, I started the bike on the center stand, held the rear brake and dropped into first gear. I'm not sure if this was the best for the bike, but it did work. Keep us posted on your progress.

Clutch Cross Section 2.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Jim,

On my way to try that now. I was trying to avoid taking off the right cover - I made a gasket myself and not sure how it will stand up to removal. Too idle to choose to go through making another.

Mike's suggestion to kick over with clutch pulled in sounds a little more gentle than your method, so maybe I'll give that a go first.

Wait out, back soon.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well, that didn't quite go as planned! :cry:

I went through the procedure as above/before. With the lever pulled I kicked it over a few times. Then I could rotate the rear wheel with bike in 1st and lever wired to handlebar. It wasn't turning freely - like in neutral - but I reckoned that was just a bit of clutch drag.

Then I did as you suggested Jim. It seemed to work, though when I moved in/out of first, I felt a decided click/clunk at the lever and heard some noises at the case. Still the rear wheel could be stopped with the brake and the engine carried on merrily.

Then when spinning the wheel by hand, it didn't feel so good. So off came the case cover and:

Clutch Thread Damage.jpg

I had read about avoiding this, but I couldn't see how to do that - any advice for next time?

The front sprocket lock washer also got mangled. This was a bit damaged when I put it back on, but now I think it is U/S:

Front Sprocket Lock Washer Damage.jpg

So I guess that's that until I sourced and manage to get hold of a replacement. I'll just go back to the 750, which was put on hold cos I thought getting the twin going would be a relatively quick job!! :lol:

Well, you live and learn, and fear not; as someone once said, "I'll be back!"

Sean
 

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The mangled part isn't the sprocket lock washer, it's the lock tab for the rarely-seen chain oiler in the end of the countershaft. Sometimes people use a larger front sprocket than stock and the clutch cable end on the lifter arm can get hit by the chain and sprocket when the sprocket is too large, but the plate holding the sprocket with the two 6mm bolts in it looks fine from here (though the bolt heads did get nicked a bit). Hard to do from just the picture but I counted 16 teeth on the front sprocket - stock is 15, so if my count is correct yours is larger
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Tom,

I'll count the teeth tomorrow. But surely if it's the larger sprocket/chain that hits the lifter, the 6mm bolt heads are a long way from danger. I reckon those nicks are from previous spannering.

When I went in there and took a look at the lock tab, I realised I hadn't disturbed any of this. So as they say in this part of the world, "I am not the one!" :)

So if it is a 16 tooth sprocket, should I revert to 15? I did squeeze the cable-end holder back into some semblance of useability, but there was still a clicking sound under the case when I spun the wheel, so maybe the sprocket is still interfering.

Sean
 

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Are you certain the 6mm (1/4") ball, #21 in your drawing, is in there? If not, the adjuster #8 has to extend the arm #6 so far out to move the lifter, assuming you CAN adjust it that far, that it can hit the sprocket.
 

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I'm very sorry to see this happen. The only time I have heard (and I certainly do not know it all) of interference in this area is when an o ring chain is fitted. They are wider and there isn't much room between the drive chain and the sprocket. Stock, the bike should be fitted with a 530x92 tooth non-o ring chain. On the CB, Honda fitted 15 tooth sprocket in the front and 35 rear. I have read many postings on this site where people have used a 16 tooth front and did not report this kind of problem. Using a 16 tooth front provides a slightly higher rear drive, 2.187 vs 2.333 to one. It gives the bike slightly longer legs at the sacrifice of less bottom end.

The lever on the lifter is bent and the cable clip mangled. This part is no longer available from Honda, CMSNL.com sells a good pattern part. I have one in my K5. It is expensive, about 65 euro. I destroyed the stock one on my bike too, but for different reasons.

It may be possible the adjuster was at the maximum lift and contacted the oiler. My bike has a K6 engine and is newer and the oiler was deleted. If this is true, I would delete the oiler and use one of the modern chain lubricants. The stock oiler drips engine oil on the chain and all of that oil gets flung onto the bike.

Also, be careful with the adjuster return spring. Those are not available either, but CMSNL.com has pattern parts too.

When you get this back together, provide more working clearance between the adjuster and clutch plate. Then move the clutch lever closer to 20 mm end of the adjustment. It doesn't take much to disengage the clutch. The clutch plates require engine oil to fully release. You may need to ride it a bit before it fully loosens up. I have about 1600 miles on my 450 now and I'm still messing with it.

I'm curious, were you able to check the clutch plate thickness? If they are worn the adjuster will need to lift higher to disengage the clutch Keep us posted.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Jim,

I did measure the clutch plates; all were well within spec. I have a 16 tooth front sprocket fitted, but there seems to be plenty of clearance.

The chain oiler seems - from scrolling through CMS fiches - to have been a feature on CL engines only 68 through to 70/71. The message on the site seems to be "remove the oiler, block the hole, and use chain lube" Is this the way to go?

I got a complete crankcase cover on Ebay with a good lifter and spring. It was more expensive than the lifter and spring from CMS, but they only accept and deliver orders when the individual, card and delivery address are all in the one country; I am in Zimbabwe, the card is UK and I would have needed it delivered to Croatia for someone to bring it back for me!! So Ebay it was!

I'm off out now to check if my rebuilt petcock is no longer leaking and then back to clutch. MAybe on the road this weekend!! :)

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Are you certain the 6mm (1/4") ball, #21 in your drawing, is in there? If not, the adjuster #8 has to extend the arm #6 so far out to move the lifter, assuming you CAN adjust it that far, that it can hit the sprocket.
Hi Rick,
I have got my new old part cleaned up and was trying to adjust clutch again. The "problem" seems to be that when I try to turn the adjuster clockwise, with the cover in place, it barely moves - less than 1/8 turn; maybe even 1/16. So I thought to look at the ball bearing; there was none in the "new" part, so I'm using the original. This measures 8mm, not 6mm as you state above, Rick.

However on another post http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/18164-cl450-clutch-lifter-steel-ball.html #2, someone (guess who) said the bearing was 8mm! However, I note that on the other post you were referring to a CL and not a CB.

Should I try a smaller ball? Not sure if it will help. Might bring the lifter even closer to the sprocket!!

Sean
 

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Sorry - I just looked it up in the parts diagram, and it says #10 5/16", which is 7.9mm. I just mis-remembered the size.
With the cover off, the adjuster should freely rotate. Maybe the 'fixing piece' has put some dents in the back side of the adjuster, making a stop point that shouldn't be there?
 

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Sean, looks like you scored on the cover. I don't think there is a lot of room for the adjuster to turn. I have attached a photo of my left side cover. The clutch was adjusted just before I put it away for the winter. Also is the link to the Owners Manual. The way I do it is to loosen the clutch cable at the engine and set the handlebar adjuster about 1/4 out from all the way screwed in. Then turn the adjuster in the side cover clockwise until it stops, then back it out slightly. The idea is to take up all of the slack in the adjuster, push rod and clutch components without preloading the clutch springs. Then turn the cable adjustment at the engine counter clock wise (looking down) until the clutch lever has the proper 10-20 mm play. Be careful not to overload the cable adjustment. I turned mine too tight and broke the cable attachment on the clutch lifter. Because of this I ride my bike at 20+ mm of adjustment at the clutch lever. At the time I was having problems getting the clutch pack to break free. I incorrectly thought I was not getting enough lift on the clutch pressure plate.

Honda CB450K5 Owner’s Manual (1972)

Left Side Cover Web Size.jpg
 

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One more thing, I suspect the damage was caused by the cable end not being orientated in line (vertically) with the cable. It may had been lying horizontal or even down in the previous attempt. Just a thought...

And, some times the lock bolt head needs a little tap to break the locking forks free. You can turn it out one or two tuns then tap it so the fork gets pushed in.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Right, I'm feeling like an idiot now; I'm still struggling with this !*!* clutch. I haven't been struggling since March; a lot has happened since then, including finding a broken coil lead which required waiting a couple of months for a replacement.

No that I discovered a bike runs better when it has a good supply of fuel — only took me a day and half to work this one out :roll: — I have a sweetly running motor that starts with a touch of the kick start - the electric motor is ????? - that's for another post.

Anyway, back to clutches. I am following the excelleent guide posted by Steve:

Put slack in the cable.... I recommend you "set" the threaded adjuster at the handlebar perch at about 1/2 way in....That way you have some adjustment left in either direction.
Cable bottom adjuster (at case cover): thread it ALL the way in so you have maximum slack inside......
With case cover off engine, VERIFY the #10 ball bearing is in place (grease it in)....
Loosen adjuster locknut on case and screw the slotted bolt FULLY CLOCKWISE until it stops (This is the maximum clearance point, "Arm" should be fully " down" as pulled by the spring).....
Replace cover and snug the Phillips head screws...... Tighten the slotted adjuster COUNTERCLOCKWISE (anti-clockwise) until you feel it start to apply pressure to the clutch (you actually feel the springs push back)... Turn it CLOCKWISE until the pressure JUST releases, Then 1/8 turn CCW, and snug the locknut......
Pull the clutch lever against the grip..... Tighten BOTTOM cable adjuster (out) until the lever JUST touches/closes at the perch.....Lock it in place......
Minor adjustments for desired lever "reach" and release points can now be done at the UPPER (perch) adjuster........
My problem is that the arm is full down when I turn the adjuster anticlockwise. When I turn the adjuster clockwise, the helical bit moves in towards the clutch lifter arm, which would disengage the clutch. Then when I put the cover back on, turning the slotted adjuster clockwise puts pressure on the clutch.

Now I know Steve's write up was for a 350/360 and I'm assuming the process is exactly the same ... or is it?

Help still needed, pleease!!
 

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Yours is different, you turn your adjuster counterclockwise for more slack and clockwise for less slack. Pull the cover off the engine and watch the cable end when you pull in the clutch. With the clutch lever pulled all the way in the lower end of the cable should form a 90° angle with the release arm. This is the ideal cable length, it gives the easiest pull(ideal mechanical advantage). If the angle is past 90° it will take more pull at the cable end to release the clutch, possibly enough to pull the cable out of the arm. Now put the cover back on with the adjuster turned counterclockwise. Turn the adjuster clockwise until you feel resistance, then back it off a hair for running clearance.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks Mike, will try that first thing tomorrow.

Fingers crossed; I'd been hoping to get on the road yesterday; then today; so tomorrow ... well tomorrow is another day! :)
 
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