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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gang

I'm just sending off my camshafts for reprofiling - I think the pairs I've got are outside the service limits - but I've only found one camshaft spacer ring (#5 in the following diagram):



And before you ask, yes, the lack of rings has led to some nasty looking wear on the journals/cam ends. At least one of the lobes and rockers look like they may have suffered from oil starvation. I'm assuming the lack of these spacers would have something to do with that.

Before the assembly goes back together, is there any value in widening/deepening the oil feed grooves in the journal ends?

Thanks

Neil
 

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The shims are for adjusting the end float on the cam. It's either needed or not. I cannot remember the spec for end float but I think it is 0.25mm max and maybe 0.05 min. Of course the Cam Journal gaskets effect this, hence if using after market gaskets, you probably need to remove one - I did.
Hope this helps.
 

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+1
!!

I'm doing my head right now... and I think i'm missing some... I have some tinny little space at each camshafts ends...

When I install them without screwing down the tacho, point cap, averything is moving, when I tight them down, almost no move by hands... is that normal?
 

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My workshop manual states that the camshaft end play shall be within 0.05-0.35mm. The shims are available in 0.1 and 0.2mm.
I measured the play here on my cams and think I got it to 0.25 on both.
[attachment=0:2iv15nw3]SSA50888-1024.jpg[/attachment:2iv15nw3]
 

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Znabb said:
My workshop manual states that the camshaft end play shall be within 0.05-0.35mm. The shims are available in 0.1 and 0.2mm.
I measured the play here on my cams and think I got it to 0.25 on both.
[attachment=0:17zg1vds]SSA50888-1024.jpg[/attachment:17zg1vds]
THansk!

I'll check mine,

But is your camshaft hard to move? And is your cam follower have no loose at all even when you set the setting lower?
 

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joevirus563 said:
Znabb said:
My workshop manual states that the camshaft end play shall be within 0.05-0.35mm. The shims are available in 0.1 and 0.2mm.
I measured the play here on my cams and think I got it to 0.25 on both.
[attachment=0:3sir4yv9]SSA50888-1024.jpg[/attachment:3sir4yv9]
THansk!

I'll check mine,

But is your camshaft hard to move? And is your cam follower have no loose at all even when you set the setting lower?
No it's not. When everything is torqued down (side covers) and no cam loob is pushing against a follower I can move it by hand quite easy.
 

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Znabb said:
joevirus563 said:
Znabb said:
My workshop manual states that the camshaft end play shall be within 0.05-0.35mm. The shims are available in 0.1 and 0.2mm.
I measured the play here on my cams and think I got it to 0.25 on both.
[attachment=0:2y0q45eg]SSA50888-1024.jpg[/attachment:2y0q45eg]
THansk!

I'll check mine,

But is your camshaft hard to move? And is your cam follower have no loose at all even when you set the setting lower?
No it's not. When everything is torqued down (side covers) and no cam loob is pushing against a follower I can move it by hand quite easy.
Thanks but what about the cam follower when you set them loose?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
A cautionary tale - and one that prompted this thread.

After reassembling the head of my 450 a few weeks ago, not only was I getting some very strange idle issues, but the starter was screeching every time I used it. Added to that the shiny shavings in the oil and you guessed it, something was very wrong.

Now it's all in bits, it's easy-ish to see what was wrong. I think I mentioned I could only find only one spacer when I disassembled everything. Well, at least one of the end faces of one of the camshafts has been grinding into the corresponding end journal. I dunno whether the side cover gaskets were too thin, or I over tightened the covers or that something else was out of whack, but whatever it was, it wasn't right. In fact, I'm guessing I had a more severe situation that Joe described earlier in the thread, but I didn't realise 'til it was too late.

Quite apart from the scarring on the mating face, the friction between the two pieces seems to have caused an oil starvation situation on the nearest cam lobe, and it may just be a coincidence, but at least one of the rocker faces is badly deformed.

To the seasoned pro, I'm sure this is a laughable (if expensive) rookie mistake, but I guess that's the way some of us learn. Guys, check the cams rotate freely after you've tightened up the side covers. If it doesn't, work out why before running the bike.
 

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the-chauffeur said:
A cautionary tale - and one that prompted this thread.

After reassembling the head of my 450 a few weeks ago, not only was I getting some very strange idle issues, but the starter was screeching every time I used it. Added to that the shiny shavings in the oil and you guessed it, something was very wrong.

Now it's all in bits, it's easy-ish to see what was wrong. I think I mentioned I could only find only one spacer when I disassembled everything. Well, at least one of the end faces of one of the camshafts has been grinding into the corresponding end journal. I dunno whether the side cover gaskets were too thin, or I over tightened the covers or that something else was out of whack, but whatever it was, it wasn't right. In fact, I'm guessing I had a more severe situation that Joe described earlier in the thread, but I didn't realise 'til it was too late.

Quite apart from the scarring on the mating face, the friction between the two pieces seems to have caused an oil starvation situation on the nearest cam lobe, and it may just be a coincidence, but at least one of the rocker faces is badly deformed.

To the seasoned pro, I'm sure this is a laughable (if expensive) rookie mistake, but I guess that's the way some of us learn. Guys, check the cams rotate freely after you've tightened up the side covers. If it doesn't, work out why before running the bike.
Thanks a lot for your post!!! So the cam shaft shouldn't be hard to turn then... One of the thing is that I do have some space between the cam and the cover so its not that, I installed a new point cover seal so that might be it.

Someone else got other ideas?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hey Joe

The only things that would make the cams difficult to turn are the cam chain (obviously only if connected), pressure from the rockers on the cam lobes or end covers that are too tight fit.

Loosen off the rockers as much as you can so there is very little friction between the rocker faces and the camshaft, and see if the camshaft turns OK. If it does not, you might find one (or both) of the end covers are on too tight. Like mine, it could be the gaskets are too thin or the end covers are overtightened. There should be a gap that you can measure with feeler gauges at each end of the shaft like in Znabb's picture. Use his guide to see whether yours are within spec.

The other thing is the bolt/washer holding the advancer/points plate in place. There is not much clearance between the bolt and the points cover, so it could be that when they are tightened down, the bolt head touches the inside of the plate. This will happen if you use an electronic ignition, and may also happen if the bolt or washer are not original (or if the advancer has been installed incorrectly).

See if any of that helps.
 

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the-chauffeur said:
Hey Joe

The only things that would make the cams difficult to turn are the cam chain (obviously only if connected), pressure from the rockers on the cam lobes or end covers that are too tight fit.

Loosen off the rockers as much as you can so there is very little friction between the rocker faces and the camshaft, and see if the camshaft turns OK. If it does not, you might find one (or both) of the end covers are on too tight. Like mine, it could be the gaskets are too thin or the end covers are overtightened. There should be a gap that you can measure with feeler gauges at each end of the shaft like in Znabb's picture. Use his guide to see whether yours are within spec.

The other thing is the bolt/washer holding the advancer/points plate in place. There is not much clearance between the bolt and the points cover, so it could be that when they are tightened down, the bolt head touches the inside of the plate. This will happen if you use an electronic ignition, and may also happen if the bolt or washer are not original (or if the advancer has been installed incorrectly).

See if any of that helps.

Thanks,

Do you know the torque spec for the cover?

Because if I check, my cam follower are loose and i feel a little loose in them to if I try to move them.

So I should put 2 gasket on those right?

See picture.




 

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joevirus563 said:
Do you know the torque spec for the cover?
Joe, I can not find a torque specification for the cam cover screws in my manual but it states 5-8 Ft.-Lb. (0.70-1.10 Mkg) for a 6 mm screw. I do it by feel myselfe.
I torqued down my cam covers and made sure the cams was free to move. Then I pushed them to one side and mesures the gap with a feeler gauge on the other side.

joevirus563 said:
Because if I check, my cam follower are loose and i feel a little loose in them to if I try to move them.
Up and down or sideways?

joevirus563 said:
So I should put 2 gasket on those right?
One gasket under each cam cover.


A question for the pro guru masters of this site.
If you need one shim for the cam side play, is there a prefered side to install them on the intake and exhaust cams?
 

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Znabb said:
joevirus563 said:
Do you know the torque spec for the cover?
Joe, I can not find a torque specification for the cam cover screws in my manual but it states 5-8 Ft.-Lb. (0.70-1.10 Mkg) for a 6 mm screw. I do it by feel myselfe.
I torqued down my cam covers and made sure the cams was free to move. Then I pushed them to one side and mesures the gap with a feeler gauge on the other side.

joevirus563 said:
Because if I check, my cam follower are loose and i feel a little loose in them to if I try to move them.


joevirus563 said:
So I should put 2 gasket on those right?
One gasket under each cam cover.


A question for the pro guru masters of this site.
If you need one shim for the cam side play, is there a prefered side to install them on the intake and exhaust cams?
Up and down, should I feel one sideway?
 

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Znabb said:
A question for the pro guru masters of this site.
If you need one shim for the cam side play, is there a prefered side to install them on the intake and exhaust cams?
Although I'm no guru, I do have an opinion :D :D Ideally there should be one ether side, but we're talking about 0.01-3 which will make no difference at all. There is more play than that in the chain guides alone, the main issue is to stop the cam from moving left and right; wearing out the cam journal face; making noise and to account for the different thickness gaskets :)
 

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otr002 said:
Znabb said:
A question for the pro guru masters of this site.
If you need one shim for the cam side play, is there a prefered side to install them on the intake and exhaust cams?
Although I'm no guru, I do have an opinion :D :D Ideally there should be one ether side, but we're talking about 0.01-3 which will make no difference at all. There is more play than that in the chain guides alone, the main issue is to stop the cam from moving left and right; wearing out the cam journal face; making noise and to account for the different thickness gaskets :)
Ok but any idea what can prevent the cam from turning when covers are thight down?
 

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joevirus563 said:
otr002 said:
Znabb said:
A question for the pro guru masters of this site.
If you need one shim for the cam side play, is there a prefered side to install them on the intake and exhaust cams?
Although I'm no guru, I do have an opinion :D :D Ideally there should be one ether side, but we're talking about 0.01-3 which will make no difference at all. There is more play than that in the chain guides alone, the main issue is to stop the cam from moving left and right; wearing out the cam journal face; making noise and to account for the different thickness gaskets :)
Ok but any idea what can prevent the cam from turning when covers are thight down?
The cam should be able to be turned by hand, with no other parts assembled and lubricated with assembly grease.

If the cams cannot be turned then it's time to dissemble everything and check the parts one at a time.
1. Ensure that the cam will spin freely in the corresponding housing
2. check each housing for straightness and damage
3. check the cam bearing surface for damage
4. fit each housing and check its alignment.

In the photos you posted it shows the followers fitted, the cam will not turn in this situation, without the use of force.
The cams must be fitted and the end gap measured, then dissembled and the correct shims fitted, reassembled and the end gap rechecked. Once this is done and the correct end gap is achieved, DO not mix the gaskets as this will change the clearances.
 

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The cam should be able to be turned by hand, with no other parts assembled and lubricated with assembly grease.

If the cams cannot be turned then it's time to dissemble everything and check the parts one at a time.
1. Ensure that the cam will spin freely in the corresponding housing
2. check each housing for straightness and damage
3. check the cam bearing surface for damage
4. fit each housing and check its alignment.

In the photos you posted it shows the followers fitted, the cam will not turn in this situation, without the use of force.
The cams must be fitted and the end gap measured, then dissembled and the correct shims fitted, reassembled and the end gap rechecked. Once this is done and the correct end gap is achieved, DO not mix the gaskets as this will change the clearances.
"In the photos you posted it shows the followers fitted, the cam will not turn in this situation, without the use of force."

So I shouldnt be able to turn in without forcing right?

If I remove the cam follower and there shaft is moving freely even tighten, but if I had the cam follower and the shaft it will move... but require really more force.
 

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joevirus563 said:
So I shouldnt be able to turn in without forcing right?
Correct ;)

joevirus563 said:
If I remove the cam follower and there shaft is moving freely even tighten, but if I had the cam follower and the shaft it will move... but require really more force.
Ok what i think you are asking is, if the followers and their shaft are removed then the cam should move freely? then yes it will
But if you install the cam shaft and the followers then the cam will not move without force? then, yes also
 

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otr002 said:
joevirus563 said:
So I shouldnt be able to turn in without forcing right?
Correct ;)

joevirus563 said:
If I remove the cam follower and there shaft is moving freely even tighten, but if I had the cam follower and the shaft it will move... but require really more force.
Ok what i think you are asking is, if the followers and their shaft are removed then the cam should move freely? then yes it will
But if you install the cam shaft and the followers then the cam will not move without force? then, yes also
:D YOU MADE MY DAY!!!
Now one last thing... I know that It would require force to push the cam when it arrive to the lob on the cam follower, but even in between it will require force?
 
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