[DD23]

Hi AL,

Good to hear she now runs !
Well done girls, you give your self a real good pat on the back !

When the bike started, I hope you used your multimeter to check battery charging system works. When running, voltage across battery should be about 13 volt, when revved to say 5 k revs, voltage should rise to 14.5 volt ish, and rise no further....

Slightly less with headlights on.

Engine running, head lights on pointing at a wall or similar, increase revs, what do you notice ?
A low tech charging system check. Works for nearly all bikes and cars etc..

So, stuff sticks when bikes hibernate, valves as well as CLUTCHes. Same with more or less everything with a clutch/valve/cable etc. Etc. Etc....

Please post a further picture of the balance shaft and that slotted lever, to show that tiny but oh so important DOT.

The centre slotted clutch nut, a picture of that would also be good but I bet it's in perfect condition.

Make ( thread on here of how to ) or purchase the peg spanner needed to undo/tighten it, NEVER loan any of your tools out !

How to lock or stop the shaft from turning ? I am Gunna let you figure out how to do that which should take you about 3 seconds.

An assistant only is needed, everything else is in front of you. No tools, only the peg spanner. Come back with your conclusion Before you "go in", just in case.

When the clutch plates are out, inspect friction plates and measure thickness, a Vernier gauge is suitable for this.

Inspect the metal plates, etched, corroded, pitted ?

Pictures pictures pictures....

You will know that this clutch is a multi plate, wet ( damp really ) clutch type. As the friction plates wear, the wear debris ends up in the engine oil. Most is collected by the oil filter, but.......

With the clutch cover off ( did the crap in the oil pressure switch area fall all over the primary gears ? ), This is the ideal time to attend to the balance chain adjustable adjuster quadrant adjustment.

Also, the ideal time to flush out the oil sump, starting at the camshaft area oil troughs, sump floor labarynth and kick starter oil trough.

Low pressure solvent is best to avoid "splatter". Flush out all that crap and clutch debris.

With the clutch basket off, what do you see on its inner surface, pictures please.

Throttle cables, pull open, pull closed. Solid cable inners can be push/pull.

Don't forget CMSNL, keep things in order, tell tale witness marks and stuff like that.

As always, h and t.....

So glad your making really good progress, you'll soon be riding your bike.

Feedback to really help others...

Weather good today so off flying again....

Dd23🤓

 

[DD23]

Good on ya girl, just be so so so carefull with grinding discs, grind stones and those thin cutting disc. Absolutely no "side forces" on those thin cutting discs.

Keep going, i know your going to and probably having great fun toboot !

Remember, it's not macho to wear no personnel safety kit, just dumb.

Watch out for sparks also, they can bounce a long way, right into the corner bin where all the old rags are, smoulder, and at the stroke of midnight, turn into a ragging inferno !

I doubt that b*"£*ly slotted nut has ever been off before. Notice the small short alloy "towers" very close to the slotted nut, it's as if the "design committee" had one hell of a bad hair day, and could not settle "belville washer" or locking tab or both !

Maybe the clutch hub is an older design, but have seen slotted nut, belville washer and locking tab all used on the same centrifugal oil filter can, belt and braces.

Flywheel side, using flywheel bolt hex to lock system to undo clutch slotted nut ?

Go have a look.....even try it, did that work, if not, why .....

select a gear and turn gearbox input shaft, what happens.....

You may have to rotate slowly both shafts to encourage easy gear selection...

With the clutch cover off, and the cam cover off, you have easy access to flush out sump floor labarynth, even with a squeeeezy bottle. Don't forget that kick start trough that will have crap in it.

Before you put the clutch cover back on ( I like to glue new home made gasket onto clutch cover, lightly greased the engine side. Pattern clutch cover gaskets do not have the heat activated adhesive like the green honda ones costing ????????? ), Research research research balance system and its adjustable adjusting quadrant adjustable adjustment.
Lock nuts are there for more than one reason......

That tiny but oh so important DOT !!!

Keep going girl, your doing great !

Same as ever, h and t...

Getting closer every day.....

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

Top marks, really good feedback, take note other posters, good feedback and clear pictures really helps us and others !

Your new tool looks good missing the small lock tab posts on the clutch hub, which is the input into the gearbox.

May I ask how you stopped the hub from turning when you slackened the slotted nut ?

No tools needed for that apart from a "third hand"...

The black crap is easy to clean off those parts...

You have CMSNL and your manual for reference so you will know where that "odd" clutch plate goes, but it's obvious anyway. Your manual gives the torque for that slotted nut.

Metal clutch plates and the corrosion on the back of the clutch basket is easily cleaned using a wire wheel, drill mounted. Beware of hi speed grinder mounted wire wheels, gloves and eye protection mandatory !

I know of no shops selling new eyes...

Had you not cleaned up those metal clutch plates, all that crap would end up in the oil which makes its way thru the oil pump but collected by the oil filter, unless.....

Also rapid friction plates wear and "compromised" gear selection/clutch drag....

Pictures of cleaned metal clutch plates...

Back in a moment...

 

[DD23]

The clutch cover honda gasket is green, no green gasket remains seen, so this cover may have been off before...

The balance chain is visible between the c/case and main bearing/oil pump mounting casting. Now you know where to look, the chain is "feel able" with a long suitable probe, thru the clutch cover slotted chromed cover plug, as is that pesky "DOT".

DO NOT, that's DO NOT probe that balance chain with the engine running !

I have to state this as at some point, some d"*£@55 will.


Ok, the bad news..... which I was dreading...

A better picture of the "dot" please.

I want to post pictures about this,
So please bear with me...

Back a bit later, chores to do like the washing up. She cooks, I wash up the welded on stuff !

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

Balance system DOT

Please see b40's thread " rebel 450 knock" post number 23 which clearly shows the dot and repositionable adjusting quadrant.

Re my reply a few posts later...

If the system has been auto adjusted, then the dot is in a good place with a good amount of slot left for further adjustment with the clutch cover on.

As you know the system will automatically adjust via a spring with the quadrant rotating anticlockwise...

The dot at 3 o clock is the maximum unadjusted ( slack ) position.

At 9 o clock the dot is at the maximum adjusted position ( tight ).

If the dot is below to horizontal c/case joint line, the system is either worn out or has been assembled incorrectly.

See CMSNL exploded views for your exact bike and note the comment about "helping" the auto adjust.

Same applies for helping the auto adjust cam chain system.

Please post picture of your DOT as it is now please. You know I have been asking about this from day one more or less as it important.

If all is ok and you wish to increase available slot, reposition the quadrant on the balance shaft.

Lock quadrant via the 12mm nut. Slacken and remove quadrant 14mm nut. Remove 12mm nut and quadrant. Reposition quadrant and tighten 12mm nut. Refit 14mm nut to torque.

Pictures please...

Your clutch component cleaning going well ? Pictures of metal plates to see etching/pitting...

A really do hope your dot is above the horizontal and in a similar position after auto adjust, as in b40's position.

Note, picture is with bike/engine upright, not upsidedown....

As ever, h and t, enjoy...

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

So you selected a high gear and stood on the rear brake pedal ???

Perfect, I didn't want to tell you, rather you suss it out yourself, you learn more, push the envelope....

The last balance chain quadrant picture, DOT at about midday with good slot left, after the quadrant repositioning ??

Perfect, good dot position, good slot left so adjustment left with clutch cover on.

Note, engine stationery when doing this adjustment.

Do you see the actual balance chain, a different animal to the cam chain. Which way does the chain move when engine rotated in normal running direction ?

Take the time to flush out sump floor labarynth and kick start oil trough of all crap, and all solvent.

Clutch parts clean and ready for reassembly ?

On UK TV we still have a program called "Blue Peter" for kids.....the catch phrase is " and here's one I made earlier...." With reference to the famous blue peter " thunderbird island" and similar....BBC TV.

Google that and see what comes up.

You fancy making a home made clutch cover gasket, a good skill to have, and saves you money toboot....

By the way, is oil filter in at the moment, you know about the thin steel washer...

As always, h and t.....I know your enjoying this experience...

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Me.......but I am a fire sign and extremely carefull.

Most good solvents are extremely flammable

Carbon tetrachloride, a brilliant solvent, when mixed with water, even water vapour, is a ww1 poison gas.

Even aerosol brake cleaner is flammable and bad for you.
If the brake dust don't kill you the brake cleaner will.

So I suppose paraffin or smelly stinky horrible diesel....nah, paraffin is Gunna be the best compromise ( I probably Gunna get shouted at for that because.....
so stand by ) unless your local motor factor can supply a safer solvent.

One gallon of paraffin is not super expensive and can be used for other things including degreasing afterwards, it can be filtered.

If you have access to a compressor and a liquid aerosol spray Lance, that has a liquid pick up pipe with a control valve to control the amount of liquid picked up, and mixed with compressed air, to produce an air/paraffin spray....like I have, then use one of them...
Or
The type with a screw on container...
Or
Even an empty clean squeeeezy bottle.....to flush out the labarynth via the gaps seen with clutch cover and basket off.

If using compressed air, the aerosol produced with be extremely flammable !!!!!!!!

If using compressed air, turn the air pressure right down so when spraying into engine and sump floor, the crap is not splattered all inside the engine, but flows out with the liquid via the sump plug hole and collected in a bowl.

Flammable liquids, if in the right state, and at the right temperature, WILL burst into flames, self combust.

In the right conditions, a naked flame or spark for that matter is not needed to set stuff on fire.

The fire triangle...

Draw a large equal sided triangle with the pointy hit at the top.
In the corner write fuel, air, ignition. Each corner has one word in it.

To kill a fire, place a finger over any of the words, to indicate that that word is no longer seen, removed if you will.

Stuff on fire, remove fuel, fire goes out. Stuff on fire, remove air, fire goes out. Stuff on fire, remove source of ignition, fire goes out, eventually !

remember this triangle

Draw another but this time but v ( volts ) , I ( current ( amps)) and r ( resistance( ohms)).

V equals I X R.

To find volts, cover v, you see I X R

Etc. A sneaky but of electrical stuff...😁

I am saying be extremely carefull with compressed air and flammable liquids....

Don't forget that kick start oil trough and to blast out with compressed air ( allow to drop out first ) all solvent.

It's well worth the effort.

Be extremely carefull !

As ever h and t, face mask and well away from property.

Compressed air if blown at your skin can result in an air bubble in your blood system and you will die !!!

Think about making your own paper gaskets.

Back tomorrow with some pictures of my compressed air Lance.....

 

[DD23]

Ps, Overall and eye GOGGLES !

Ear goggles are good when grinding, loud noises etc...

Perhaps a full face mask as well...

What did you say, too many Jimmy hendrix concerts at volume 130 dB.......😀

Even knee pads or cushion.

Use personal safety equipment from now on, else you will still not be using it much later in life ! It'll be way toooo late then.

 

[DD23]

Doh ! Pps, do not let ANY flammable liquids enter water drainage systems, it plays havoc with toilets and could result in an explosion and huge crater in the road right outside your house !

Septic tanks, you do not want one of those blowing up in your back garden, believe me !

 

[DD23]

Lol, yes but no gloves or steel toe cap boots, but you get the idea.

Didn't get chance to take pictures today, plumbing job half way thru...

Will take pictures tomorrow thou.

Any pictures of the sump floor and labarynth, you should be able to see sump floor thru those gaps...

You fancy making your own gasket for clutch cover and flywheel cover ?

Over...

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,
We have hot water again, which means I can have a nice hot bath, hurrah !

Notice banana box, free from supermarkets with some even giving points if you take them away, economics of the mad house.

They are strong, take a lot of stuff, stack and are recyclable. They have a large poly bag which is usefull and a sheet of relatively thick card at the bottom suitable for making clutch and flywheel gaskets

Red red squirty oil can is usefull, even use it to "pump" oil through carb passageways to help clear them of crud etc..

The brake cleaner aerosol gives a good jet of fluid but is expensive and flammable. It's a good cleaner evaporating quickly. I also have a gallon of the stuff to put in a pump up pressurised sprayer, much more economical at about £17 a gallon.

The squirty washing up liquid bottle, when empty and clean makes a good squirty jet.

The Lance will blow compressed air, and a liquid spray. The compressor has an adjustable air supply to the Lance, and the liquid pick up has and adjustable valve.

Low air pressure gives a slow low pressure air/liquid jet which stops sump crap "splatter" inside the engine when cleaning/flushing.

At high pressure it will spray a fine atomised spray. Water and detergent is not a problem, but a finely atomised flammable spray is,bits dangerous not needing a naked flame to set it on fire, just enough temperature, you have been warned !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The pump action spray dispenser never seem to last, they always seem to leak meaning waste of the expensive penetrant/lub liquid.

Household cleaning products have similar pump action sprayer, even a large syringe is usefull for sump crap flushing. I even have a stainless steel cake icing syringe which is good. I saw it in a charity shop at 50 pence, real cheap and a good workshop tool.

There will be other things you can use for flushing out the sump crap.

I have 3 battery hydrometers. One just for batteries, one minus it's float for brake fluid jobs like flushing dirty master cylinder fluid, brake fluid use only, and one for use with fuel, filling carb float bowls for brief engine runs.

I have not shown the other blasters I have like a Lance with a screw on liquid reservoir, and the dry/wet sand blaster etc..

Hope you and others find this little ditty usefull.

If you are thinking about making your own clutch/flywheel gaskets, see if you can get some sheets of the banana box card, which is great, and free.

All you need to make the gasket is the clean clutch cover minus the dowels, a pen, scissors and a 6mm woodworking drill, the type with the spike ( unlike an auger with a tapered screw end ). A flat piece of suitable wood/ply big enough to sit the cover on which the wood drill will penetrate through.

DO NOT do it on your grand piano lid or mouse man table top !

Use the drill by hand. I use a chuck and shaft from a scrap burnt out electric drill.

When holes drilled, and outline drawn with inside trimmed to width, I glue the home made gasket to the flywheel/clutch cover. I grease the gasket lightly then fit cover . They will survive a taking off and putting on at least once.

When gasket glued on I trim the dowel holes with a craft knife.

Try making a gasket. Your first one will be crap, second will be better with the third one perfect.

Use the covers screws/bolts to keep gasket in place when gluing, just don't glue the bolts in. I use a slowish superglue, just keep that well away from your eyes !!!!!

If you glue your fingers to the cover, or each other, don't pull apart !!!!! A twisting action is the way to free your self/fingers.

I use it a lot even in aeromodelling.
You can get hand powered fuel pumps to pump fuel from container to the aircraft's fuel tank.
It gives a good controllable "jet" of liquid but are a little expensive.

Reuse, repurpose, recycle.

Bath beckons....

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Yes, oil troughs in cylinder head the cam lobes dip into to create oil splash and eventually oil mist/fog. Also kick start oil trough.

It's best to start at the top of the engine and allow cleaner to drip down. The gaps seen under clutch cover will allow cleaner into the engines insides. A cranked tube will allow cleaner to flush out k/start oil trough.

That's why compressed air Lance with cleaner mix is best but at relatively low pressure to avoid splatter.

Give cleaner time to drip out, use compressed air jet to blow of cleaner making sure oil troughs are empty of cleaner.

Prime cam oil troughs with oil prior to refitting cam cover. On start up it would be good to have the cam cover off to view good oil flow up to cam area. A good check to do for peace of mind.

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

Picture too fuzzy to see, but CMSNL views for your bike, cm400t 1980 (a) USA ,are good.

Remove clutch cover carefully so gasket does not tear.

I am going to assume you assembled clutch correctly. You noticed that one odd clutches friction plate and put it in the correct place.

I assume you fitted the "outside" marked spring washer and clutch nut " chamfer" towards that spring washer, and torqued to value which my book says 33 to 36 pounds feet.

The four 6mm 10mm across flats spring plate bolts torque is unspecified in my honda book !, But is a 6mm bolt into alloy, so 6 to 8 pounds feet.

Torque them to 6 pounds feet is my method, never had one come loose yet. I am sure when you fitted those bolts you screwed them in bit by bit, diagonally, so no tip or stress.

Bearing good ?

Clutch cover.
The clutch lever that fits in the clutch cover is sprung loaded as you know. Look into the "mushroom hole", the short cylindrical part with a "platform" at the end that presses onto the spring plate bearing. You should see a "cut out area" in the clutch lever shaft. You may have to rotate the clutch lever slightly to see it.
The mushroom fits in the round hole and sits in the cut out.
Moving the clutch lever will make the mushroom move outwards and return by spring action, but the mushroom may pop out of its place.
So, repeat, this time pressing on the mushroom platform end. When fitted correctly it will remain in place, and when cover fitted and tight, cannot fall out in service.
If the bearing "collapses" in service, the clutch will not release and the mushroom could fall out. Not come across this fault, yet.

When fitted to the clutch cover, and the clutch cover lever operated, does the mushroom move out ?

Did you remove that lever, shaft and spring system from the clutch cover at all ?

A clear picture of it would be good.

Clutch friction plates, I like to align all the small tang "cut outs"...

Feedback

Dd23

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

Arrrrrrrgh, noooooooo.....

As long as the thread is ok in the "towers" And the bolt remains have come out ( oh god please let it come out drama free please ) all ok, no biggy.

It would be a good idea to try fitting a good bolt into "that" tower but any resistance to it screwing in is a problem. Do Not force it in.

It's a common metric thread, from memory 6mm by 1 pitch. This means the threaded part of the bolt is 6mm diameter, and the pitch means the number of threads per mm, as it's a metric bolt. One complete turn of the bolts hex head "advances" or moves the "nut or bolt" by 1mm.

You may have access to "taps and dies", the tap ( three types, tapered first cut, less tapered second cut, and non tapered final or plug tap, final cut ) forms the thread in holes of slightly less diameter than in this case 6mm. The dies, circular cutters that fit into a double handle with a round hole and lock screw, form the threads on rods or bolts. The diameter of the rod is slightly larger diameter in this case of 6mm.

These clearances/dimensions are listed in lookup tables, but after a while you tend to memorise the dimensions of regularly used taps and dyes.

Aquire the 6 mm tap, final/plug one and fit into its dedicated handle.

It may be best for you to start the tap off into the threaded hole by hand. Do Not cross thread it.

Using the taps handle, turn the tap half a turn at a time on a hand started tap. Half a turn in, then half a turn out, turn back in half a turn, then half a turn in, half a turn out, then back in half a turn, half a turn in etc. Etc. Etc.

The half turn in cuts or cleans the thread, the half turn out clears the cut swarf. Use a lub also, parrafin for alloy from memory or engine oil.

DO NOT BREAK the TAP in the hole, if you do my language will no longer be pink !!!!!!!!! Lol.

The taps are very brittle !!!!!!!!

Just take your time, you will be ok, but if the going gets tough, Stop and suss out why. Perhaps toooo much swarf in tap flutes. Clean swarf out.

If your carefull I don't think you will have a problem. Just be gentle, the tap does the work.

Did you get the broken bolt remains out of the hole ?????


When fitted the spring plate and towers become one, no gap between plate "holes" area and tower ends.

Don't think springs will need any attention but you may as well check relaxed spring length.

That odd friction plate only goes in one position, you will suss out where but check on CMSNL/manual to be sure.

When you are fitting the spring plate, start off bolts say two turns in, then diagonally one turn at a time.

6 Pounds Feet.

You sussed out mushroom fit and engagement in clutch cover hole, moved out when clutch cover lever turned, and clutch cover lever "angle" in correct place ?

It's spring and circlip I'm position ?

Pictures please of mushroom in place, lever, clutch pack end view And side views please.

Gaps between friction plates when clutch together are uniform ?

Clutch cover bolt holes in crank case clean and no trace of any sealer ?!!!

No sealer needed for clutch cover as it has a gasket.



Bolts.....

6mm bolt with 10mm af ( across flats ) hex head, 6 lbs/ft. ( Pounds feet )

6mm clutch cover bolt with 8mm af hex head, 6 lbs/ft.

6mm thread size end of cam cover bolt, 10mm af hex head, 6 lbs/ft.

Sometimes, 6mm bolt with 12mm af hex head, 6lbs/ft.

So it's the thread part diameter of a bolt that dictates torque value along with pitch and material the bolt screws into.

Book says 6 to 8 lbs/ft torque depending on material it's screws into.

You may settle at 7lbs/ft.

Stay with 6 lbs/ft.

You have the click type torque wrench ?

You will soon get the feel for 6 lbs/ft, just don't overtighten and strip/shear threads/bolts/nuts/screws etc..

Has that broken bolt come out ?

Over......

 

[DD23]

Top table is for cb175

Lower table is "rule of thumb"

Values in brackets are lbs/ft.

Always consult your manual for correct specific torque values. Underline lbs/ft values in your manual if lbs/ft are your preferred values.

Can you see this ok ?

 

[DD23]

Torque wrenches ...

No not showing off...

The bottom britool 3/8 inch square drive 4 to 24 lbs/ft range torque wrench must be over 50 years old by now and still in spec.

The middle britool 1/2 inch drive 20 to 100 lbs/ft, a replacement about 6 years ago as I wore out my initial one. I was disgusted to find this britool British tool was made in bloody Italy FFS !

The upper one is a cheapo but tested to be quite accurate.

The electronic one up to 250 lbs/ft.

Mo has my "angular torque wrench" at the moment. I trust him with my life, know where he lives and on good terms with his dog !

Mo has a wrench up to 540 lbs/ft that I can loan when needed

Research "Young's modulus"...

Be carefull when torquing lubricated bolts as they will "over tighten easily" compromising threads etc..

 

[DD23]

No not showing off.

An Xmas good customer gift from a parts supplier over 50 years ago, thanks again Glynn.

Carbon steel but does the job. It's been added to over the years including that oh so needed snap on ( £26 !!!!! Many many years ago ) 10 X 1.25 plug tap.

Notice the toothed pitch gauge. You can offer up a bolt to a tap to determine pitch but be aware, some pitches are very close.

Some American bolts etc. have "wierd" threads. I suppose you guys and gals think British cycle thread is weird also.

This cheapo set has saved my bacon many times. My engineering set is locked away. Nobody uses that but me. Great sentimental and monetary value, it's worth a lot of money and is treasured. I will probably take it with me...sod everybody else.

 

[DD23]

Vision don't open...

Clutch lever and shaft In clutch cover are spring loaded to turn anticlockwise when viewed from above.
Load mushroom into its hole and slot. Operate cover lever and watch it rise a bit, push it back in all the way to reload.

Fit cover, nip bolts, fit cable and adjust. Handle bar clutch lever should snap back to clutch engaged possition, normal riding.

Picture to show equal spacing of clutch plates, side view.

All spacers etc in correct position during clutch assembly ?

Is that broken screw out ?

 

[DD23]

Ok, clutch shaft and lever returns in an anticlockwise driect due to spring loading.
For clutch to disengage like when sitting at traffic lights in gear it rotates clockwise when viewed from above.

this rotation pushes the mushroom out into contact with that small very hard working ball race bearing.

try not to sit at lights etc. In gear, consider that small bearings duties.

sorry for the slight poor description.

 

[DD23]

Hi Al,

No picture seen....

I think you may have to "reload" the mushroom...

Operating a fitted clutch via the clutch cable "arm" with only 3 clutch cover bolts in is not a good idea.

Neutral, yes a good idea.
To do the clutch job none of the gear selection mechanism needs to be removed, however parts of that mechanism may have moved.
Cm400t 1980 (a) USA
Picture shows same mechanism.
Gear shaft 12 fits thru the odd spring 14 and into the c/case thru to the other side. The spring 14 fits over the c/case "stub". The legs of the spring fit either side of a small arm in the shaft 12. The spring legs also go either side of screwed in via hex post. This is the sprung loaded mech that returns the gear foot pedal to the "central position", it's normal position.

The gear shaft 12 has a spring loaded pivoted arm that has 2 hooks which face each other. The hooks contact the 5 pins held in place via the "star wheel" 7. The hooked arm fits between the star wheel and disc.

The spring loaded roller arm roller sits on the star wheel edge, with the roller sitting in one of the many "valleyies". Neutral is the smallest valley, next to ONE valley.

If gear selection parts are not fully "home", or are out of place, problems fitting the clutch unit will be experienced.