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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got this bike in October from a PO who bought it and let it sit for about 7 years. Changed out battery and spark plugs, and replaced fuses; removed carbs and cleaned all jets, etc, (and replaced gaskets and diaphragms); replaced throttle cables (push cable was broken). I have power and spark and she runs! With thanks to some folks here in this forum who guided me in peeking under the cam cover to make sure things wouldn’t get ruined if I turned it over. I still have some fuel delivery issues (I know, that’s a different topic category)- I think the tank is pretty gunked up even after a clean out, so I’ve had to flush out the inline fuel filter. But I can get her to run, “hands free” though sometimes need to adjust the choke to keep it running. I have no front brake right now, so I’m not going anywhere yet.

And here’s my question: with the bike running, I pulled in the clutch and tapped it into first gear, and it lurched and stalled. So now I’m looking into the clutch - got the Right crankcase cover off and took off the lifter plate and springs, and it feels a bit like all the plates are stuck together. I can separate them with my fingers with a little effort, but should they be more freely and easily moveable individually?
im thinking they could use a little looking after, and a good soak, and if so, I have that locknut to contend with, but I won’t bother if you tell me the clutch plates seem fine.
thanks in advance for looking!
can’t seem to attach video here so

I posted a video to YouTube showing the clutch plates:
 

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Hi AL,

Good to hear she now runs !
Well done girls, you give your self a real good pat on the back !

When the bike started, I hope you used your multimeter to check battery charging system works. When running, voltage across battery should be about 13 volt, when revved to say 5 k revs, voltage should rise to 14.5 volt ish, and rise no further....

Slightly less with headlights on.

Engine running, head lights on pointing at a wall or similar, increase revs, what do you notice ?
A low tech charging system check. Works for nearly all bikes and cars etc..

So, stuff sticks when bikes hibernate, valves as well as CLUTCHes. Same with more or less everything with a clutch/valve/cable etc. Etc. Etc....

Please post a further picture of the balance shaft and that slotted lever, to show that tiny but oh so important DOT.

The centre slotted clutch nut, a picture of that would also be good but I bet it's in perfect condition.

Make ( thread on here of how to ) or purchase the peg spanner needed to undo/tighten it, NEVER loan any of your tools out !

How to lock or stop the shaft from turning ? I am Gunna let you figure out how to do that which should take you about 3 seconds.

An assistant only is needed, everything else is in front of you. No tools, only the peg spanner. Come back with your conclusion Before you "go in", just in case.

When the clutch plates are out, inspect friction plates and measure thickness, a Vernier gauge is suitable for this.

Inspect the metal plates, etched, corroded, pitted ?

Pictures pictures pictures....

You will know that this clutch is a multi plate, wet ( damp really ) clutch type. As the friction plates wear, the wear debris ends up in the engine oil. Most is collected by the oil filter, but.......

With the clutch cover off ( did the crap in the oil pressure switch area fall all over the primary gears ? ), This is the ideal time to attend to the balance chain adjustable adjuster quadrant adjustment.

Also, the ideal time to flush out the oil sump, starting at the camshaft area oil troughs, sump floor labarynth and kick starter oil trough.

Low pressure solvent is best to avoid "splatter". Flush out all that crap and clutch debris.

With the clutch basket off, what do you see on its inner surface, pictures please.

Throttle cables, pull open, pull closed. Solid cable inners can be push/pull.

Don't forget CMSNL, keep things in order, tell tale witness marks and stuff like that.

As always, h and t.....

So glad your making really good progress, you'll soon be riding your bike.

Feedback to really help others...

Weather good today so off flying again....

Dd23🤓
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
DD23, thank you!
I will make my own tool for that dastardly nut- the right size just isn’t out there, at least not where I’ve been looking. (Maybe I found one for $55 USD but that’s no fun)
I wonder: does the flywheel cover on left side of bike move with the clutch - if so, I could have someone hold that while I use my new socket, once I make it. Guess I’ll need a friend (or a mirror) to answer that. I have some grinding to do before I get there ;)

great tip about the multimeter while she’s running. Will do that.
Wheel Automotive tire Motor vehicle Locking hubs Alloy wheel

Liquid Cylinder Gas Tool Metal
 

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Good on ya girl, just be so so so carefull with grinding discs, grind stones and those thin cutting disc. Absolutely no "side forces" on those thin cutting discs.

Keep going, i know your going to and probably having great fun toboot !

Remember, it's not macho to wear no personnel safety kit, just dumb.

Watch out for sparks also, they can bounce a long way, right into the corner bin where all the old rags are, smoulder, and at the stroke of midnight, turn into a ragging inferno !

I doubt that b*":mad:£*ly slotted nut has ever been off before. Notice the small short alloy "towers" very close to the slotted nut, it's as if the "design committee" had one hell of a bad hair day, and could not settle "belville washer" or locking tab or both !

Maybe the clutch hub is an older design, but have seen slotted nut, belville washer and locking tab all used on the same centrifugal oil filter can, belt and braces.

Flywheel side, using flywheel bolt hex to lock system to undo clutch slotted nut ?

Go have a look.....even try it, did that work, if not, why .....

select a gear and turn gearbox input shaft, what happens.....

You may have to rotate slowly both shafts to encourage easy gear selection...

With the clutch cover off, and the cam cover off, you have easy access to flush out sump floor labarynth, even with a squeeeezy bottle. Don't forget that kick start trough that will have crap in it.

Before you put the clutch cover back on ( I like to glue new home made gasket onto clutch cover, lightly greased the engine side. Pattern clutch cover gaskets do not have the heat activated adhesive like the green honda ones costing ????????? ), Research research research balance system and its adjustable adjusting quadrant adjustable adjustment.
Lock nuts are there for more than one reason......

That tiny but oh so important DOT !!!

Keep going girl, your doing great !

Same as ever, h and t...

Getting closer every day.....

Dd23
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
My new tool worked (!) and I’m measuring friction plates to compare with manual specs. Have I taken photos of what you want to see? The inside of the basket has tons of crud but seems smooth.
And off to find the balance dot you’ve been gently nudging me about all along 🤓
 

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Hi Al,

Top marks, really good feedback, take note other posters, good feedback and clear pictures really helps us and others !

Your new tool looks good missing the small lock tab posts on the clutch hub, which is the input into the gearbox.

May I ask how you stopped the hub from turning when you slackened the slotted nut ?

No tools needed for that apart from a "third hand"...

The black crap is easy to clean off those parts...

You have CMSNL and your manual for reference so you will know where that "odd" clutch plate goes, but it's obvious anyway. Your manual gives the torque for that slotted nut.

Metal clutch plates and the corrosion on the back of the clutch basket is easily cleaned using a wire wheel, drill mounted. Beware of hi speed grinder mounted wire wheels, gloves and eye protection mandatory !

I know of no shops selling new eyes...

Had you not cleaned up those metal clutch plates, all that crap would end up in the oil which makes its way thru the oil pump but collected by the oil filter, unless.....

Also rapid friction plates wear and "compromised" gear selection/clutch drag....

Pictures of cleaned metal clutch plates...

Back in a moment...
 

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The clutch cover honda gasket is green, no green gasket remains seen, so this cover may have been off before...

The balance chain is visible between the c/case and main bearing/oil pump mounting casting. Now you know where to look, the chain is "feel able" with a long suitable probe, thru the clutch cover slotted chromed cover plug, as is that pesky "DOT".

DO NOT, that's DO NOT probe that balance chain with the engine running !

I have to state this as at some point, some d"*£@55 will.


Ok, the bad news..... which I was dreading...

A better picture of the "dot" please.

I want to post pictures about this,
So please bear with me...

Back a bit later, chores to do like the washing up. She cooks, I wash up the welded on stuff !
 

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Hi Al,

Balance system DOT

Please see b40's thread " rebel 450 knock" post number 23 which clearly shows the dot and repositionable adjusting quadrant.

Re my reply a few posts later...

If the system has been auto adjusted, then the dot is in a good place with a good amount of slot left for further adjustment with the clutch cover on.

As you know the system will automatically adjust via a spring with the quadrant rotating anticlockwise...

The dot at 3 o clock is the maximum unadjusted ( slack ) position.

At 9 o clock the dot is at the maximum adjusted position ( tight ).

If the dot is below to horizontal c/case joint line, the system is either worn out or has been assembled incorrectly.

See CMSNL exploded views for your exact bike and note the comment about "helping" the auto adjust.

Same applies for helping the auto adjust cam chain system.

Please post picture of your DOT as it is now please. You know I have been asking about this from day one more or less as it important.

If all is ok and you wish to increase available slot, reposition the quadrant on the balance shaft.

Lock quadrant via the 12mm nut. Slacken and remove quadrant 14mm nut. Remove 12mm nut and quadrant. Reposition quadrant and tighten 12mm nut. Refit 14mm nut to torque.

Pictures please...

Your clutch component cleaning going well ? Pictures of metal plates to see etching/pitting...

A really do hope your dot is above the horizontal and in a similar position after auto adjust, as in b40's position.

Note, picture is with bike/engine upright, not upsidedown....

As ever, h and t, enjoy...

Dd23
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Okay I was mislead by something in the clymer guide (about reading upside down): my Photos are taken right-side-up. I did have to adjust the spline engagement on the stopper plate so there’d be a little room to play with. Balance dot is center top when looking right side up, about 12 o’clock. “Before” photo:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Oh yeah, and to answer your question about the hub turning: I noticed the back wheel trying to spin (bike has cloth and tarp beneath) so I stepped on the foot brake pedal while I unlocked the notched nut. I hope “what worked” Is also correct?
 

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Hi Al,

So you selected a high gear and stood on the rear brake pedal ???

Perfect, I didn't want to tell you, rather you suss it out yourself, you learn more, push the envelope....

The last balance chain quadrant picture, DOT at about midday with good slot left, after the quadrant repositioning ??

Perfect, good dot position, good slot left so adjustment left with clutch cover on.

Note, engine stationery when doing this adjustment.

Do you see the actual balance chain, a different animal to the cam chain. Which way does the chain move when engine rotated in normal running direction ?

Take the time to flush out sump floor labarynth and kick start oil trough of all crap, and all solvent.

Clutch parts clean and ready for reassembly ?

On UK TV we still have a program called "Blue Peter" for kids.....the catch phrase is " and here's one I made earlier...." With reference to the famous blue peter " thunderbird island" and similar....BBC TV.

Google that and see what comes up.

You fancy making a home made clutch cover gasket, a good skill to have, and saves you money toboot....

By the way, is oil filter in at the moment, you know about the thin steel washer...

As always, h and t.....I know your enjoying this experience...

Dd23
 

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Me.......but I am a fire sign and extremely carefull.

Most good solvents are extremely flammable

Carbon tetrachloride, a brilliant solvent, when mixed with water, even water vapour, is a ww1 poison gas.

Even aerosol brake cleaner is flammable and bad for you.
If the brake dust don't kill you the brake cleaner will.

So I suppose paraffin or smelly stinky horrible diesel....nah, paraffin is Gunna be the best compromise ( I probably Gunna get shouted at for that because.....
so stand by ) unless your local motor factor can supply a safer solvent.

One gallon of paraffin is not super expensive and can be used for other things including degreasing afterwards, it can be filtered.

If you have access to a compressor and a liquid aerosol spray Lance, that has a liquid pick up pipe with a control valve to control the amount of liquid picked up, and mixed with compressed air, to produce an air/paraffin spray....like I have, then use one of them...
Or
The type with a screw on container...
Or
Even an empty clean squeeeezy bottle.....to flush out the labarynth via the gaps seen with clutch cover and basket off.

If using compressed air, the aerosol produced with be extremely flammable !!!!!!!!

If using compressed air, turn the air pressure right down so when spraying into engine and sump floor, the crap is not splattered all inside the engine, but flows out with the liquid via the sump plug hole and collected in a bowl.

Flammable liquids, if in the right state, and at the right temperature, WILL burst into flames, self combust.

In the right conditions, a naked flame or spark for that matter is not needed to set stuff on fire.

The fire triangle...

Draw a large equal sided triangle with the pointy hit at the top.
In the corner write fuel, air, ignition. Each corner has one word in it.

To kill a fire, place a finger over any of the words, to indicate that that word is no longer seen, removed if you will.

Stuff on fire, remove fuel, fire goes out. Stuff on fire, remove air, fire goes out. Stuff on fire, remove source of ignition, fire goes out, eventually !

remember this triangle

Draw another but this time but v ( volts ) , I ( current ( amps)) and r ( resistance( ohms)).

V equals I X R.

To find volts, cover v, you see I X R

Etc. A sneaky but of electrical stuff...😁

I am saying be extremely carefull with compressed air and flammable liquids....

Don't forget that kick start oil trough and to blast out with compressed air ( allow to drop out first ) all solvent.

It's well worth the effort.

Be extremely carefull !

As ever h and t, face mask and well away from property.

Compressed air if blown at your skin can result in an air bubble in your blood system and you will die !!!

Think about making your own paper gaskets.

Back tomorrow with some pictures of my compressed air Lance.....
 

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Ps, Overall and eye GOGGLES !

Ear goggles are good when grinding, loud noises etc...

Perhaps a full face mask as well...

What did you say, too many Jimmy hendrix concerts at volume 130 dB.......😀

Even knee pads or cushion.

Use personal safety equipment from now on, else you will still not be using it much later in life ! It'll be way toooo late then.
 

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Doh ! Pps, do not let ANY flammable liquids enter water drainage systems, it plays havoc with toilets and could result in an explosion and huge crater in the road right outside your house !

Septic tanks, you do not want one of those blowing up in your back garden, believe me !
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ps, Overall and eye GOGGLES !

Ear goggles are good when grinding, loud noises etc...

Perhaps a full face mask as well...

What did you say, too many Jimmy hendrix concerts at volume 130 dB.......😀

Even knee pads or cushion.

Use personal safety equipment from now on, else you will still not be using it much later in life ! It'll be way toooo late then.
Sleeve Safety glove Gesture Personal protective equipment Flooring

will this do?!
HA HA HA - this is from some home reno projects. I am NOT using that pry bar on my Honda. Just for a laugh ;) Sleeve Safety glove Gesture Personal protective equipment Flooring
 

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Lol, yes but no gloves or steel toe cap boots, but you get the idea.

Didn't get chance to take pictures today, plumbing job half way thru...

Will take pictures tomorrow thou.

Any pictures of the sump floor and labarynth, you should be able to see sump floor thru those gaps...

You fancy making your own gasket for clutch cover and flywheel cover ?

Over...

Dd23
 
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