[jakec]

I have been working to get a 1970 CL175 running. So far I have:

1. Got the engine moving with some MM oil, kicks over freely now.

2. Did an oil change.

3. Took the carbs off and rebuilt them.

4. Put a battery in and tested all of the lights, everything is working.

5. New fuel hose and inline filters.

6. Installed new plugs and tested for spark (good).

Now I'm trying the electric starter and it turns the motor over occasionally, like once every 5-10 turns. I can hear the starter spinning, and when it doesn't turn the motor over it makes a sound like gravel or pennies rattling around. Right now I'm charging the battery. I took the points cover off and took some pics. I know the corrosion is not a good sign. I'm just not sure where to go from here.

 

[doode]

Woah, have you removed the stator cover and inspected the oil slinger contents? Do you happen to know the bikes history?
Does the sound come from the heart of the engine, or engine left side cover? Best not run it until you pull the left side cover.

 

[jakec]

Woah, have you removed the stator cover and inspected the oil slinger contents? Do you happen to know the bikes history?
Does the sound come from the heart of the engine, or engine left side cover? Best not run it until you pull the left side cover.

I haven't pulled the left side, only the right to do the oil change. It was "lightly" locked up... didn't take much effort to get it moving. The previous owner said that it "ran when parked" three years ago. So I wasn't that worried about anything being wrong inside the case.

If by oil slinger you mean the oil filter, yes I have cleaned it out. It didn't have any contents other than the usual oil change debris. The back "gravel knocking around in a can" sound seems to be coming from the starter motor. I can kick it overall all day long and you'd only hear the puff of air coming through the exhaust.

I have done some googling and found some pics of the left side cover off and the chain that goes from the clutch to the starter. I guess i'm curious, if something were broken, how could it turn the motor over occasionally?

Also wondering, when I kick it over I'm not getting anywhere. In theory should I be able to start it that way (if everything is in order), even though electric start wont work?

Finally, what should I do about the corrosion on the points? Clean or replace? Could that be contributing to this issue? I have spark.

 

[doode]

Maybe the noise is your starter clutch needs a rebuild. Sorry for jumping to conclusions prematurely.

The rust on your camshaft, just clean off and lightly oil it. You should get new points but leave for now if you're getting spark. That's what I would do anyway. How does the points contact surfaces look?

Edit- yes, if you have spark fuel and compression, it should start. Is it not starting? I'd try checking timing and valves, then if doesn't start, try starter fluid.

 

[jakec]

I definitely have spark, at least in the right side which I tested.

I should have fuel, I noticed that the left carb bowl was leaking once I had everything hooked up (which at least means it's getting fuel).

Kick over is pretty smooth and I can definitely feel compression. I can kick it over all day however, and it gives no inklings of combustion happening.

So all that said I should be able to kick start? I definitely need to clean the points (maybe the corrosion is messing up timing?) But other than that, I can't think of anything that would be keeping it from starting on kick.

How can I figure out if my starter clutch is broken? Do I need to take off the left side cover? That would be unfortunate considering that I just put oil in it last night.

 

[doode]

I like to check valve and timing before trying the starter fluid, in case there is an issue with either, less risk of damage.

If you are anxious then try the starter fluid and you'll know if your nonstart is a fuel issue or not.

Also, you can try this starting procedure
Key off. Gas on.
4 slow kicks. Very slow.
Choke on at like 80%.
Key on. A firm kick, or two.

As for the starter clutch, basically when your starter motor turns, the starter clutch grabs and spins the engine. The rollers are busted and may be what's rattling around. You'd be best off dumping the oil to service it. If you want to be cheap then you can lay the bike over on the rt side and service it.

 

[jakec]

Interesting. I don't think i'll go with the starter fluid. I'll try cleaning up the points, and then see if I can start it on kick. If not then I probably need to have the carbs back off so I can investigate that leaky carb (did I mention that the bike has two different carbs? I think they're from different years of the same bike). If I end up with the carbs back off I'll take the left cover and starter motor off and see what it looks like in there.

 

[Simo]

The sprag clutch on the starter is shot,
How did you check for spark? If you havent set the timing its always going to be a pita start.
What are the carbs and how did you rebuild them ( two different carbs are going to be ridiculously hard to tune)

 

[doode]

Simo is the 175/200 expert here, and he will be able to help you get up and running.

 

[jakec]

Simo is the 175/200 expert here, and he will be able to help you get up and running.

Awesome! I'll attach a pic of a manual showing the carb settings. One of my carbs is a #653A and the other is a #306A. When I did the "rebuild" I just took them apart to make sure they were all there, flipped a needle that was in backwards, set the idle mixture screws (at different settings based off of the attached pic), cleaned jets, and and put them back together.

The way I checked for spark was by holding the plug near the block and hitting the starter button.

When you say the sprag clutch is shot, are you referring to the sprocket that turns the chain? I'm curious, how would it be able to the motor every fifth or so turn?

 

[Richard_Pitman]

Those numbers (653 and 306) are stamped on the inlet manifolds, which are separate parts to the carbs, so it is possible that a previous owner cracked an inlet flange, and replaced it with a part from a scrapped bike. Carb bodies are the same for both those part numbers, it's just the jets that differ, so I'd look there first to see if you do actually have a matching pair.

The sprag clutch is on the back of the alternator rotor, under the starter sprocket. Think of it as the free wheel on a bicycle, clutch engages when starter motor runs ( or cyclist pedals ), but freewheels when the starter motor stops, ( or cyclist goes down hill).

Different mechanism to a bicycle free wheel, but principle is the same.

 

[jakec]

The numbers are punched on the manifolds yes, but the bowls on the carbs on actually different. You're right tho, the bodies look pretty much the same. One has a more "weird" shaped bowl with more bumps and a smaller drain screw. Otherwise they look mostly the same. If the bodies are the same, why would they call for different jetting, etc settings?

I found this video but I can't listen to the sound because I'm at work. Looks like he is fixing a similar problem. A the beginning of the video he shows the starter motor spinning the chain but not moving the alternator rotor. Would that be similar to how my bike makes the chain rattling noise but does not turn the motor over?

 

[Simo]

Richards right,
With an overflowing carb and a siezed engine id replace the oil a few times to get all the gunk from the cases ( oils cheaper than parts.)
OK so the carbs sound like theyre from different years but are at least both for a 175 ( no way to tell for sure unless you post as photo.
Are the jets the same size at least?

 

[jakec]

According to the pic of the manual they should be different, if each respective carb has its stock size jet in it. 306A uses a #90 and the 653A uses a #92, etc. I'm not sure what actual jets are in, how can you tell by looking at them? Seems like I will have the carbs off soon so I can check again then. In any case, a new carb is about $40 on ebay if I do need to go to a matching set. Before I worry about the fuel delivery though, I would like to figure out this electrical issue I seem to be having.

 

[Simo]

Whats the elerical issue?

 

[Richard_Pitman]

According to the pic of the manual they should be different, if each respective carb has its stock size jet in it. 306A uses a #90 and the 653A uses a #92, etc. I'm not sure what actual jets are in, how can you tell by looking at them?

Jet sizes are stamped on the jets. You may need a magnifying glass or jewellers loupe, if your eyes are like mine.

 

[jakec]

Whats the elerical issue?

Sorry, the original problem I had posted about was the starter issue, so I put it under electrical not knowing it was actually a mechanical issue.

Right now the plan is to dump oil and look at the right side of the motor and see what I can do there. Meanwhile I'll get the carbs back off and decide if I need to buy a rebuild kit.

 

[jakec]

Does anyone have a good link for a how-to on removing the stator cover? I haven't been able to find a good post or video showing it being removed, just stuff where it is already off.

 

[doode]

Stator cover (not the generator cover) is remove the bolts and pull off (for a 350, never done it on a 175 but I assume it's the same). The magnetism from the generator makes it not want to come off.

 

[jakec]

Stator cover (not the generator cover) is remove the bolts and pull off (for a 350, never done it on a 175 but I assume it's the same). The magnetism from the generator makes it not want to come off.

I went ahead and went for it. I was afraid that the clutch adjustment (giant flathead on the outside of the case) was going to offer some kind of unexpected challenge. Luckily everything slides apart nicely. So, I got the cover off. Dumped 1.5L of perfectly good oil . The clutch cable was a bit weird, I'm really hoping I'll be able to get that thing back together correctly. Inside, everything looked pretty good except for some heavy deposits in the stator cover, and an extremely dirty area under the main sprocket cover (but I guess that is to be expected). Hopefully after some cleaning my neutral indicator light will work!

Anyways, I have two pics below that I have questions on, mainly how do I back the bolt out of the clutch? I tried to loosen it and the whole thing just turned.

second, what is the little pole sticking out in the middle of the pic? Is that the shaft of the clutch? Seems like it lines up with the clutch cable assemblage on the inside of the stator cover. The reason I'm asking is because it's really dirty and I would like to clean it. I pulled on it and it comes out easily. I only pulled about an inch and put it back because I didn't want to do something stupid and pull it out and have it not go back in.