yellow and white/yellow and new rectifier/regulator
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Thread: yellow and white/yellow and new rectifier/regulator

  1. #1
    TRS
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    yellow and white/yellow and new rectifier/regulator

    Always drive with low beam on in daylight and even my new battery is on edge.
    The yellow and white/yellow modification inside front lamp is done.
    Should that be revised back to original if i put in a modern rectifier/regulator?
    Will change to electric ignition soon also so want it to be compatible with these.

    Also if someone from Europe has had luck in finding a rectifier/regulator of good quality in EU, always sour with customs, VAT... when ordering from USA?
    On german Ebay i find SUN R/R but it says only fits to K1-3, mine is K4. David Silver nor CSMNL do not carry them.

    EDIT: getting even more confused looking at 4into1:s webshop. They have 2 R/R for CB450 K4, Rick´s for $120 and "single phase" for $ 30. As i have understood reading here the bike has 2 phase charging system. Does the cheaper one only use one of these phases?

    ///TRS
    Last edited by TRS; 06-08-2019 at 01:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Sonreir's Avatar
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    If using a modern regulator/rectifier, my preference is to keep the yellow and yellow/white wires connected at all time.

    The Honda twins use a single phase system. Despite the number of wires coming from the stator, there isn't actually anything called two phase. Single phase and three phase are the only flavors.

    As for the costs of R/Rs in Europe, I'd be happy to send a bulk batch over. I could do with a European distributor for our R/R.

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    Member jjdugen's Avatar
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    Sigh..... There are three 'phases' on these alternators. (Although it has been argued that there are three single phases?). Anywho. Buy any modern reg/rec that will fit. Behind the battery box on the rear mudguard lets you fit a fairly large device. No need to worry about make or type, these alternators won't worry a modern device.
    Unplug the three leads from the OE regulator box and tape them out of the way.
    Take the three output leads from the alternator and join them to the three same colored leads on the reg/rec. Take the positive output lead from the reg/rec, (depends on make for wiring colours, easy to find that info), direct to the battery pos, the neg to battery neg, Job done. Ignore or delete the white and yellow white wiring, its no longer active.

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    Senior Member WintrSol's Avatar
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    No, there is only 1 phase; for there to be 3, each lead from the stator would peak 120 degrees from the next, and it would be wired in a delta configuration. There are 3 leads from our stators, but 2 are at the same phase angle, and opposite the third by 180 degrees. If the yellow and white outputs were not at the same phase angle, you couldn't short them together, the way the stock headlamp switch does. A 3 phase stator requires 6 diodes, while a single phase only needs 4, which is what we have. You can connect it to a 6 diode rectifier, but that is not needed.

    You do not need to separate the yellow and white/yellow wires with a modern R/R; that was done to reduce the amount of power the old regulator had to dissipate when the lights were off. Even with that connection, if you are using a stock rated headlamp (25W/35W), charging won't break even below about 1300rpm on low, and about 1500rpm on high. Bottom line: don't sit at a stop light, or put along at low rpm with the light on.
    Rick

    Mine is a mostly 1970 CB450K3

  6. #5
    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    These are SINGLE PHASE systems on our early (pre-1978) twins.....
    Honda specifies they are single phase, and the members who can read a schematic and understand electrical agree.... (Thanks Matt and Rick)
    IF there was more than one phase, then "shorting" (connecting) two of the output wires (as Honda does) would result in LESS electrical output instead of producing more current as the stock system does.......
    As an example, consider what happens when any two of the three, three-phase wires carrying power to your house short together
    (I'm sure we've all seen the wires down from a power pole after a storm......)
    Last edited by 66Sprint; 06-10-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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    Member jjdugen's Avatar
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    'IF there was more than one phase, then "shorting" (connecting) two of the output wires (as Honda does) would result in LESS electrical output instead of producing more current as the stock system does.......'

    Yes. BUT! A three 'phase' (really, three input) reg/ rec DOES seperate the three outputs from the alternator. The rectifying portion does not care what 'phase' is presented to its inputs, just as long as it is an A/C waveform. Similarly, the regulating section does not care what form the D/C input takes, it just clamps whatever D/C it sees to roughly 13.8 - 14 volts.
    I can assure you that I have done this on a regular basis on many 70's and even early 80's motorcycles including all my early Hondas. You will have a very satisfying boost to electrical output, given that the alternator windings are good and the rotors magnets are in good condition. Therein does lie the rub. Rotor magnets will fade with time and especially with any shocks to the rotor unit, such as removal by heavy handed use of the hammer. This will be an increasing problem with age and it might be more productive to investigate re-magnetisation process'.

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    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    There IS NO "boost" to be gained (significant or otherwise)...
    Once you connect the Yellow and White/yellow wires together to one AC terminal, and Pink to the other AC terminal you have already connected the maximum output of the alternator to the rectifier AC "inputs" .......

    It CAN NOT, and DOES NOT further increase by simply connecting it through an additional and unnecessary separate set of diodes....
    There is NO NEED to "separate" phases because there IS only one phase....
    That is how the Honda engineers designed it and WHY they specified a SINGLE PHASE (full wave bridge) rectifier......

    Please continue to use and promote connecting in three phase rectification as it is brainless but easy, and engenders no actual understanding of how the system was designed to function......Heaven forbid anybody learns something new while working on their bikes....
    Last edited by 66Sprint; 06-11-2019 at 01:09 AM.
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    Member jjdugen's Avatar
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    I am merely trying to explain an easy and cheap method of maximising the available electrical energy available. ANYTHING that replaces the Selenium rectifier WILL show an immediate improvement in charging rates. ANYTHING that replaces the hit and miss OE regulator will save your battery from boiling and dumping battery acid over silencers and frame.
    Looking at the wiring diragram. Whilst I agree that there is one 'super' winding, i.e. two SEPERATE windings connected to one phase, there is another, seperate winding on its own phase. So, in effect, two phases, one phase coupled to two seperate outputs, with another seperate phase at whatever angle that turns out to be. (Never put the outputs on a scope as yet). So, while the two coupled windings will be at the same phase angle, this still makes no odds to the sperate, individual, input diode stack of the reg/rec. It will be treated as an A/C input, rectified to D/C and the output fed into the regulation electronics. I cannot see why it should be such an issue, you have full, far more efficient electrical output for a few pounds (dollars). Why pay the eye-watering amounts for 'specialist' reg/recs when any old modern device will do the job quite happily?

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    Senior Member Sonreir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjdugen View Post
    I am merely trying to explain an easy and cheap method of maximising the available electrical energy available. ANYTHING that replaces the Selenium rectifier WILL show an immediate improvement in charging rates. ANYTHING that replaces the hit and miss OE regulator will save your battery from boiling and dumping battery acid over silencers and frame.
    Looking at the wiring diragram. Whilst I agree that there is one 'super' winding, i.e. two SEPERATE windings connected to one phase, there is another, seperate winding on its own phase. So, in effect, two phases, one phase coupled to two seperate outputs, with another seperate phase at whatever angle that turns out to be. (Never put the outputs on a scope as yet). So, while the two coupled windings will be at the same phase angle, this still makes no odds to the sperate, individual, input diode stack of the reg/rec. It will be treated as an A/C input, rectified to D/C and the output fed into the regulation electronics. I cannot see why it should be such an issue, you have full, far more efficient electrical output for a few pounds (dollars). Why pay the eye-watering amounts for 'specialist' reg/recs when any old modern device will do the job quite happily?
    Why pay more for a three phase R/R when a single phase unit will suffice?

    If maximization is the goal, then surely removing the additional diodes (necessary for a three phase rectifier) from the circuitry would be preferred?

  11. #10
    TRS
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    Junior Member TRS's Avatar
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    Thanks, i think i am starting to understand the function of the system with regulator and rectifier now. Like a cars alternator but the R/R are outside the alternator and not built in the unit!

    ///TRS

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