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Thread: yellow and white/yellow and new rectifier/regulator

  1. #11
    TRS
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    Junior Member TRS's Avatar
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    As for the costs of R/Rs in Europe, I'd be happy to send a bulk batch over. I could do with a European distributor for our R/R.[/QUOTE]

    Sonreir, do you see large enough interest for these from Europe? I have just had my CB450 for 2 weeks so do not really know the classic bike scene here.
    ///TRS

  2. #12
    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjdugen View Post
    I am merely trying to explain an easy and cheap method of maximising the available electrical energy available. AGAIN, the stock set-up ALREADY utilizes the maximum available output... ANYTHING that replaces the Selenium rectifier WILL show an immediate improvement in charging rates. (Charging efficiency, NOT rate...Rate is determined by RPM's ) ANYTHING that replaces the hit and miss OE regulator will save your battery from boiling and dumping battery acid over silencers and frame. (We agree on this...)
    Looking at the wiring diragram. (PLEASE look again) Whilst I agree that there is one 'super' winding, i.e. two SEPERATE windings connected to one phase, there is another, seperate winding on its own phase. NO! So, in effect, two phases, NO! one phase coupled to two seperate outputs NO!, with another seperate phase NO! at whatever angle that turns out to be....It is ZERO or 360 degrees because all SIX coils are interconnected in the way that places them on the same single phase.... OF those six coils, four are wound with many turns of lighter gauge wire, yielding higher output voltage, and two are wound with less turns, but thicker gauge wire yielding higher amperages.... Combined, this yields the maximum voltage and amperage output at any particular rev speed that that stator was capable of producing, and which was determined (number of turns, wire gauge, etc) by that bike's specific needs..... (Never put the outputs on a scope as yet). So, while the two (parallel) coupled (sets of) windings will be at the same phase angle, (YES, Finally!) this still makes no odds to the sperate, individual, input diode stack of the reg/rec. It will be treated as an A/C input, rectified to D/C and the output fed into the regulation electronics. AGREED! I cannot see why it should be such an issue, you have full, far more efficient electrical output for a few pounds (dollars). NO! It is NOT any more efficient than a correctly connected modern single phase silicon rectifier/regulator.... Why pay the eye-watering amounts for 'specialist' reg/recs when any old modern device will do the job quite happily?
    This last sentence is somewhat akin to saying "Why not use a $29 lawn tractor battery on your bike because it will work, and it's much cheaper and more readily available than the correct battery", and the answer to both questions is the same.....Because it isn't necessary, the specifications, and the physical size may be problematic......Honda designed each stator to be a balanced component of/to the bike's energy requirements and battery size (amperage) at the time of manufacture......Modern usage (lights-on-laws) have changed the requirements...A more efficient (than the original) rectifier and regulator are essentially mandatory, and the modern silicon units have provided that, but there is no need to use a three phase unit when the correct single phase one works properly......Like the tractor battery scenario, overkill is not desired or required....
    Last edited by 66Sprint; 06-11-2019 at 10:20 AM.
    "I have a mind like a steel trap.....Old and rusty, of antiquated design, and hard to get stuff back out of...."
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  3. #13
    Senior Member WintrSol's Avatar
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    For there to be two phases, one output would have to be wired in quadrature to the other, IOW, at 90 degrees. While possible, this is a real PITA to wind, which is why you see single or three phases, and rarely, if ever, anything else. Adding an extra set of diodes to the rectifier does not increase performance in any way - the Voltage lost to the rectifiers is the same. This loss is considerably less with silicon over selenium; selenium was the best available when the systems were designed, and readily available, so Honda continued using them, even though silicon became available during production. If your 3-phase rectifier is more readily available and/or cheaper because of commonality, then use it. It makes no difference if you use all three inputs, or just connect to two, even if regulation is done by shunt (SCRs shorting the inputs).
    Rick

    Mine is a mostly 1970 CB450K3

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  5. #14
    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    I have NO objection to using a three phase unit IF they are more easily available to you or prove less expensive.....
    They are certainly easy to connect, and do work, however, they are generally physically larger and more expensive.....
    My OBJECTION is to your insistence that doing so provides a superior set-up to using a modern single phase R/R unit when the net results are virtually identical.....
    "I have a mind like a steel trap.....Old and rusty, of antiquated design, and hard to get stuff back out of...."
    Contact info: E-mail; [email protected] Phone; 540-525-5199

  6. #15
    Member jjdugen's Avatar
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    A modern, readily available, relatively cheap reg/rec will ALWAYS be superior to a, probably, leaky old Selenium rectifier and the assosiated regulator box as OE. That has ALWAYS been my point. Why dick about joining wires in a fifty year old loom when my method completely eliminates any wiring losses and is, surely, easier for the non electricaly savy owner to fit?

  7. #16
    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    Please explain(considering the stock harness does not have a connector suitable for the three phase unit) having to either cut into the existing harness and/or fabricate an intermediate "jumper" harness piece from the alternator plug (remembering to re-connect the neutral light switch wire) to the replacement three phase unit plug ...Then you still have to run the connections back to the battery or old harness and possibly to the black "reference" wire)... HOW IS THIS EASIER???

    I simply plug the single phase R/R in place of the old rectifier, plug the yellow and white/yellow into each other in the headlight shell and plug in the Black wire from the old regulator to the new unit.....

    Seems to me it IS a whole lot better to simply plug things in and cause no damage to the original harness....
    NO cutting, extra fabrication, soldering, crimping or replacement terminals and plugs required...
    Last edited by 66Sprint; 06-12-2019 at 12:24 AM.
    "I have a mind like a steel trap.....Old and rusty, of antiquated design, and hard to get stuff back out of...."
    Contact info: E-mail; [email protected] Phone; 540-525-5199

  8. #17
    Senior Member Sonreir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRS View Post
    Sonreir, do you see large enough interest for these from Europe? I have just had my CB450 for 2 weeks so do not really know the classic bike scene here.
    ///TRS
    Hard to say. I definitely sell fewer in Europe than I do in North America, but that could be due to any number of reasons. Just off the top of my head, the shipping costs are one possibility, but I also think a lot of people have a preference for buying within their own geographical areas to avoid long shipping times and other concerns.

  9. #18
    TRS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonreir View Post
    Hard to say. I definitely sell fewer in Europe than I do in North America, but that could be due to any number of reasons. Just off the top of my head, the shipping costs are one possibility, but I also think a lot of people have a preference for buying within their own geographical areas to avoid long shipping times and other concerns.
    I have ordered a lot of stuff for my 4 wheel toys from USA and have had absolutely no problems with the hardware or shipping in any case, always been good.
    The problem is the price before i have the parts by me. Customs are counted on price+shipping+ insurance. Carrier also takes i fee for doing the customs paperwork.
    Then comes value added tax, which in Sweden is 25%. So all these added the final cost is 45-50% higher than the price in USA. This is the reason why i, and probably many others on this side of the pond, first look if we can find what we need inside European Union. Ordered inside EU you only pay the price+shipping. We´lll see how it will be after Brexit and the customs wars blowing up lately.

    ///TRS

  10. #19
    Member jjdugen's Avatar
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    No matter what the general opinion of replacement reg/recs (still think I'm right though!). The main 'problem' with the charging system is that the rotor magnets are old, low gauss and probably fading after so many years. Doing a bit of digging and it would seem that Ricks motorsports offered a modern neodymium magnet replacement rotor. It is no longer available, of course, doubt that they ever sold any, but it is the way to go. Anyone with any experience of re-magnatising rotors? I'm still digging but there might just be someone on here with the knowlege.

  11. #20
    Sensei 66Sprint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjdugen View Post
    No matter what the general opinion of replacement reg/recs (still think I'm right though!). The main 'problem' with the charging system is that the rotor magnets are old, low gauss and probably fading after so many years. Doing a bit of digging and it would seem that Ricks motorsports offered a modern neodymium magnet replacement rotor. It is no longer available, of course, doubt that they ever sold any, but it is the way to go. Anyone with any experience of re-magnatising rotors? I'm still digging but there might just be someone on here with the knowlege.
    "Thinking you are right" makes it an opinion, and of course, you are welcome to your opinion.....

    Knowing you are correct makes it factual..... Knowledge, understanding, facts, and logic are hard to debate......
    "I have a mind like a steel trap.....Old and rusty, of antiquated design, and hard to get stuff back out of...."
    Contact info: E-mail; [email protected] Phone; 540-525-5199

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