Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?
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Thread: Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?

  1. #1
    Supporting Member jensen's Avatar
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    Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?

    Hi All,

    Since synthetic oil is available on the market, the discussion about using this type of oil in older bikes is somewhat overheating now and then, despite the ability of oil in general to lubricate.

    Clutches will slip, the viscosity is too low etc, breaking in is difficult etc, there are a lot of opinions, rumours and prejudices.

    Personally, I don’t recognize any of those issue’s, regarding the fact that I always use these type of oils since they became available. Over the years I wrote a lot about using oils in my classic bikes, mostly on the Honda305 forum, sohc4 forum but also on this forum.

    As you all know I ride a CB450 K0, got the bike when the odo showed 1533 miles from new. Since I don’t know if the odometer showed the correct mileage, I decided to build up an extra engine (K0), and use a full synthetic oil from mile 0 (also breaking in procedure).



    The engine is build to Honda spec, with new cranck bearings (all rollers are replaced), nice but not new camshafts, new cam followers, and new valve springs (with the maximum torque). The valves and valve seats are milled to spec, the transmission is used, but all small parts are replaces, just as the clutch. The pistons are NOS, piston clearance is set to 0,015 mm.

    The only thing that isn’t standard is an oil filter set-up from Cappellini, and the use of a CB500T oil pump (NOS). The reasons for using an oil filter setup from Cappellini is described in the text below, copied from the Honda305 forum (written by me).

    Jensen

    Maybe I wasn't clear why the spinner oil filter doesn't work as good as a paper filter, and I apologizes for that, I'll try to explain it in a better way.

    The principal of a spinning oil filter seems to be simple but isn't when you look at the details.

    The idea is that by centrifugal force particles are driven toward the edges of the filter where these particles will accumulate. Once in a while you clean the filter and the process starts over again.

    The centrifugal force on the particles is depending on the circular speed of the filter and the weight of the particle and the distance of the particle from the center.

    Fc= m*w2*r

    Fc is the centrifugal force
    m is the mass of the floating particle
    w is the circular speed
    r is the radius or distance from particle toward the centre

    In this particular case (honda 305) the w (circular speed) is not constant, it changes linear with the rpm, it's influence in the formula (thus on the particle) changes with the square of that.

    The first experiences with full synthetic oil (5W20) I had were with Honda SS50 / CD50 engine.
    I experienced that, when I used the oil, the engine was cleaned within a few hundred miles, and everything what was lying around in the cases would accumulate in the spinning filter (part of the clutch). So, in this case the spinning filter is working fine.

    Later I experimented with full synthetic oil on larger engines (CB72) and found the same results.
    The first conclusion was that the spinning filter works fine with full synthetic oil, so I started using this oil in a rebuild engine (and a new oil pump). Every 1000 km I cleaned the spinning oil filter and every 4000 km I changed the oil. After 12.000 km I was curious how the internals of the engine would look like, so I decided to open it up. Everything was in as new condition and measurements after 12.000 km where comparable with the initial values before installation.

    So nothing wrong here ? Yes and no. I also inspected the oil pump and I found wear at the oil pump gears (as stated it was new 12.000 km ago). I checked with the oil pumps used in the
    small displacement engines and there was no sign of wear. Time for looking for differences.

    It took a while, but in the end I found the few reasons for the wear on the oil pump in the CB72 engine. The mean reason is the difference in construction between the oil filters, and I will explain with the formula above.

    When I compared the values in this formula for the two engines I found a few differences.

    Mass off the floating particles in both engines are (assumed) the same.

    The radius of the area where the particle is (toward the centre) in the centrifugal filter is depending of the radius of the filter itself, and here I found a difference in construction. The radius of the small displacement engine is a little bigger then in a CB72, so the force on the particle is higher.

    The circular speed (w) is depending on how fast the filter is turning around, and here I found the also construction differences. In the small displacement engine the oil filter is attached to the clutch (part of the clutch) and this clutch is directly attached to the crank. Therefore the speed of the filter is the same as the crank speed. In the CB72 it’s not directly attached to the crank but the power is transmitted by a chain. The chain gears on the crank and oil filter would be the same there isn’t any difference, but this is not the case. The filter runs with a higher speed then the crank, not much, just a little (24/22 teeth).

    The difference in driving styles are also responsible for a difference in speed of the filter.
    Since the crank speed is depending on the rpm, the rpm of the engine dictates the force (Fc) on the floating particle. I ride the small displacement engines with much higher revs as the CB72 engine, because of the lack on power at certain speeds. Where I tend to run my CD50 at a constant speed of 55 km/hour the engine is running over 7500 rpm. I calculated with an average of 7000 rpm. At the CB72 I’m not running this rpm as often as I do on the CD50. I calculated with an average rpm of 4500 for the CB72.

    So, when we look at the impact on the force on the particle, with the data above :

    Fc for the CB72 compared to the Fc for the CD50 :

    Mass of particles is the same, so mcb72 = mcd50

    Radius of the CB72 is 0.8 of the CD50, so rcb72 = 0.8 rcd50

    Circular speed of the CB72 is 0.64 of the speed of the CD50, so 0.64 wcb72 = wcd50

    The construction factor between CB72 and CD50 is (24/22), so 1.09 wcb72 = wcd50.

    When filled in :

    Fccd50= m*w2*r and Fccb72 = m*((1.09*0.64)w)2*0.9 r
    Fccd50 = m*w2*r and Fccb72 = 0.43 m*w2*r

    This means that the centrifugal force on a floating particle in the CB72 is a halve of the centrifugal force on the same particle in the filter of the CD50

    A full synthetic oil is a very powerful detergent, it will clean the engine very good and drop the particles in the filter due to the above explained principal. The very small particles (like cool) are not filtered out by the filter, but don’t do any harm to the engine either.
    But if the detergent power of the oil exceeds the influence of the Fc on the particles in the filter, these particles will not be held in the filter and start floating around in the oil.

    This means that when the running speed of the engine is low (rpm) the oil starts cleaning the filter itself, and this is probably why I found wear to the oil pump gears. In the breaking-in process I never push the machine to it’s red line, so dirt collected in the filter was washed out and went through the pump.

    The conclusion of the oil analyse was that there where a lot of particles floating around in the oil, which should be filtered out.

    After this "discovery” I drained the oil more often, found less particles in the drained oil, and the oil pump stayed within specs.

    This is the reason why I developed an oil pump with a paper filter, sometimes I like to ride low rpm’s (as a tourer) without the knowledge of ruining my oil pump, and I don’t want to change the oil every 1000 km or so.

    I analysed the oil and after 2000 km, the oil is still good enough to use.

    Like I stated earlier, with this oil filter solution I can use all the benefits of a full synthetic oil without the problems it causes at low revs.

    So before you put a half synthetic / full synthetic oil into you engine, make sure that your oil filter is clean. If there's any sludge in your engine cases it will be (partly) washed out by the new oil and dropped into the spinner oil filter. Needless to say you have to check the oil filter within a very short period after using the new oil, depending on how clean the internals are.

    I hope this explains a little more about the choices I made.
    The test verdict is the new Castrol 10W-60 EDGE oil with FST (Fluid Strength Technology)

    A few weeks ago I transplanted the engine in the bike, and filled her up with the test verdict.

    In this thread I will rapport and write down how the engine behaves from day 1.


    Disclaimer :

    I don't have any relation with Castrol, other then customer. This test is done at my own costs, and own responsibility. I'm not responsible for any damage when other people try the same.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?-typical-dutch-landscape-3.jpg   Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?-castrol-edge-10w60-edge-fst.jpg  
    Last edited by jensen; 09-11-2017 at 11:46 AM.
    assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)
    CB450 K0 '66, CB450 K1 '68, CB450 K2 '69, CB72/77, C77, CB400F

  2. #2
    Supporting Member jensen's Avatar
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    The breaking-in procedure:

    From the first start I use the Castrol Full synth. 10W60 Edge. I assembled the engine with this oil, including the piston skirts and piston bore. Before I started the engine for the first time, I checked if the oil pump was working properly by turn the engine with starter motor untill the oil came at the cam followers (engine still out of the frame).

    This oil will be in the engine for the first 5000 miles, the oil filter will be replaced at 1500 miles.
    At 5000 miles I will replace the oil and filter. Of course I will keep the oil level constant by filling oil when necessary.

    Since I have lot's of dynojet curves, compression ratings etc, from the other cb450 K0 engine I can compare both engines.

    Jensen
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Full synthetic oil in a fresh build CB450 K0 engine from mile 0 ?-bomber-twilight.jpg  
    Last edited by jensen; 09-10-2014 at 08:11 AM.
    assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)
    CB450 K0 '66, CB450 K1 '68, CB450 K2 '69, CB72/77, C77, CB400F

  3. #3
    Super Moderator J-T's Avatar
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    Interesting, especially the part about how it will work with the wet clutch.
    JT
    81 CM400T

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  5. #4
    Supporting Member jensen's Avatar
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    100 miles report :

    The carburettors were dialled in great, and I swapped them from the original engine to this one, this way I was sure that the engine wouldn't be too lean.
    Filled the engine with oil, 3 mm above the highest point on the dip stick and started the bike. The engine did start quickly, but was running irregular, as expected, I had to adjust the idling because it wanted to stall every time.

    Day1:

    After warming up I rode 5 miles and did put it back to rest to cool down. Just a nice ride, keeping the needle of the rev-counter between 2k and 5K, using the first and second gear. Back home I inspected the bike, everything was doing well. Idling went from 1500 to 2000 rpm, so I adjusted it back to 1500rpm.

    Day2:

    After warming up I rode a nice 30 miles ride, in first, second and third gear, between 3K and 6K rpm. Back home I measured the oil temp, 93 degrees celcius, quit warm, but not something to worry about. Engine is running better, and I adjusted idle, because after the first longer ride the idle went from 1500 rpm to 3000 rpm (rings are getting seated). Oil level checked, was good.

    Day3:

    Early morning ride, 65 miles ride ahead of me. After warming up the bike, I kept the bike between 2,5K and 7K rpm, shifting constantly. Personally I don't like to drive at constant speeds when breaking in, so I went for some empty roads. Took the engine to 8k in second gear a few times, and went through all the gears. Back home I adjusted the idle from 2000 rpm to 1200 rpm and checked the oil level and added 50 cc of oil.

    The first 100 miles were done, so time to inspect and re-torque the head and engine bolts. The next day (cold engine) I removed the gas tank, top engine hangers, air filters, carburettors and small parts, to make room for taking the valve covers off. After removing the covers I saw that the cams were fine, no damage or issue's here.

    I always set the valve clearance of a new engine way beyond specification for the first start, and for a CB450 I set them to 0,10 mm (0.039 inch), better safe then sorry. It makes some extra noise, but I avoid the risk of damaging the cam shaft followers and cams. I lowered down the valve clearance to 0,06 mm (0.0023 inch) for the exhaust valves and 0,05 mm (0,0019 inch) for the intake valves. I narrow this gap down within 5000 miles to 0,04 mm (0,015 inch) for the exhaust valves, and 0,03 mm (0,011 inch) for the intake valves, while keeping an eye on wear at the backside / opposite of the (cam)lobes.

    Before I install new or replacement cam's I always sand the backside / opposite of the cam lobe with sandpaper 1200, and make sure the structure is perpendicular to the rotation axis, this way it's easy to see if the cam follower touches the backside / opposite of the cam lobe. In my life I have seen enough butchered 450 cam's.

    After re-torqued the head, I made sure that the ignition timing was spot on (statical) and lubricated the points and points cam. I measured the battery voltage (since the starter motor was hardly turning the engine, but it was a nice 13,06V, which is excellent. I adjusted the camchain adjuster, and did re-adjust the chain slap (secondary chain) to the rear wheel. After that I assembled everything again, ready for the next trip.
    Last edited by jensen; 10-17-2014 at 04:34 PM.
    assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)
    CB450 K0 '66, CB450 K1 '68, CB450 K2 '69, CB72/77, C77, CB400F

  6. #5
    Supporting Member jensen's Avatar
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    Somebody even interested in this thread ? Personally I don't see the point in spending time in a thread, when I also can ride bikes.
    Last edited by jensen; 09-11-2014 at 12:34 PM.
    bochurch likes this.
    assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)
    CB450 K0 '66, CB450 K1 '68, CB450 K2 '69, CB72/77, C77, CB400F

  7. #6
    Supporting Member ctrider's Avatar
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    Well that sure is a sweet looking bike!! Enjoy
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”

    Hunter S. Thompson

    1970 CB350
    1974 CT70
    1977 XL75
    2005 PW80

  8. #7
    Super Moderator frogman79's Avatar
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    That's interesting I did respond yesterday but for some reason its not here now. I'm interested to see what happens as I would like feed back on that Oil filter system since there is very little on this site thus far. I would like to put one on my bike as I plan on riding mine, not working on it all the time.

    AS it is Jensen and I know I tell a lot of new people this. Some times it takes time for threads to be responded to especially when they are as specific as this one was. It's been two days since your original post and so far you had 84 views, which is not bad.

    If you like a mod can must remove this thread altogether, however I wish you would at least let us know your thoughts on that filter system either here or in another thread.

  9. #8
    Supporting Member jensen's Avatar
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    Hi,

    No worry's, and like I said, I would like to see some return on investment, writing a thread in an other language is time consuming, I can spend my time only once.
    Most people on this forum are speaking English on a daily bases, the density on this forum with people who do not, is very thin.

    What I'm wondering, does anyone understand what is written ?, I can't imagine that no one has questions.


    Jensen
    Last edited by jensen; 09-11-2014 at 12:35 PM.
    assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)
    CB450 K0 '66, CB450 K1 '68, CB450 K2 '69, CB72/77, C77, CB400F

  10. #9
    Supporting Member ctrider's Avatar
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    Your English is near perfect.
    The first time I checked it, all the text had been removed, but now I read through it.
    Very interesting, thank you.
    As said, it is a very specific topic and way above my head.
    Great info for sure. Thanks
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”

    Hunter S. Thompson

    1970 CB350
    1974 CT70
    1977 XL75
    2005 PW80

  11. #10
    Super Moderator J-T's Avatar
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    I think the fact that you're posting an informative thread rather than asking a question contributes to lots of views but not a lot of responses. With all the discussions about oil over the years I find one with a fresh approach to be very interesting (guess I'm probably responsible for more than my share of the views). The concept of a more "modern" oil that works with our clutches is an option many of us didn't know we had.

    I'm also kinda "old school" and new/rebuilt engines get oil changes an 100/500/1000 miles (or 5/25/50 hours). Did you use your current approach on new engines with "conventional" oils?
    JT
    81 CM400T

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