Clutch Basket and Crank Gear Clearance Issues - Page 2
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Thread: Clutch Basket and Crank Gear Clearance Issues

  1. #11
    Super Moderator ancientdad's Avatar
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    And there it likely is... good work, Chris. Part numbers do not always reflect the visual differences.
    Tom

    CL450 project reboot, street legal this time
    Budget drag bike project
    CB350K1 full patina project
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  2. #12
    Senior Member WintrSol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12ozPBR View Post
    I was able to go out and check my parts stash and I found this. The upper gear and (thin) washer came out of a bag labeled K6. The lower gear and (brass) washer came out of a bag labeled K3. Also of note is the part of the K6 gear where you can see the difference in color from the meshing of gears and where it was not in contact with the clutch gear.
    According to my parts list for K3-K5, the primary gear was the same part for all (13611-292-010). From this photo, it appears the primary was changed with the K6, and probably continued in the K7. Guessing this is the problem.
    Rick

    Mine is a mostly 1970 CB450K3

  3. #13
    Member Emerikol's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone with the help here. I’ll see if I can scare up the drive gear from the old crankshaft set. Otherwise I’ll just mill the gear down that I’ve got. Still out in the weeds with the clutch basket set. I’m happy we got the crank issue worked out, but that clutch issue is going to keep me from putting the rest of the engine back together. Any ideas would be gratefully received.
    First Rule of Aviation: Never Pass Up the Opportunity to Pee

    2004 Yamaha V-Star
    2015 Haosen Hawk
    2015 Suzuki DR560
    2016 Ural Gear Up
    1973 Honda CL450 (The Basket case)
    1974 Honda CB450

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  5. #14
    Supporting Member 12ozPBR's Avatar
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    If it’s true that you just have a fatter K6 or K7 gear in use with the earlier brass washer then when you either swap to the correct gear or washer then that might solve your clutch issue, correct? The other consideration is making sure the slight offset in the arm for the oil pump piston is correctly oriented.
    Runners
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  6. #15
    Member Emerikol's Avatar
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    PBR, it’s two separate issues, it just happens that they both involve the clutch basket. The first issue seems to be solved, I think I’ll just mill down a couple thousandths off the crank gear to get the clearance I need. The other issue is that the inner clutch basket doesn’t slide back far enough to allow the circlip to seat into the shaft groove. I didn’t remove the pump shaft from the eccentric on the back of the outer clutch basket. I took the oil pump and basket off as a set. With that in mind, it would stand to reason the pump arm wouldn’t have changed orientation. There’s also no dragging on the clutch basket when you turn it over by hand. It all feels really smooth. I’m thinking it might be a worthwhile exercise to pull the pump and clutch outer basket off again and just double check everything. I’m pretty meticulous when it comes to building engines, but I suppose it’s possible I missed something.
    First Rule of Aviation: Never Pass Up the Opportunity to Pee

    2004 Yamaha V-Star
    2015 Haosen Hawk
    2015 Suzuki DR560
    2016 Ural Gear Up
    1973 Honda CL450 (The Basket case)
    1974 Honda CB450

  7. #16
    Supporting Member 12ozPBR's Avatar
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    Emerikol, not doubting your skills at all. The two issues are so closely related in a physical sense that one may be affecting the other despite appearances. If it were me, I’d try and rectify the washer/gear issue and see if it fixes the other. That’s all. Good luck sorting it out and please update this thread so we know the outcome.
    ancientdad likes this.
    Runners
    1971 Triumph Tiger
    1972 CL350
    1974 XL350
    1974 CB450

    Current Project
    1966 CB450 Black Bomber

  8. #17
    Senior Member Lefty's Avatar
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    could you have left right main bearings locating pin out? That bearing location determines the cranks end play. If it was left out it could be shifted over enough to cause this issue I suppose. You did say you didn't have any end play and that doesn't seem right to me.

  9. #18
    Member Emerikol's Avatar
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    Lefty, all locating pins were accounted for and properly, well, located. I had end-play until I ran down the oil rotor nut on the brass thrust-washer. I think the issue is that I'm using an old-style crank with a new-style drive gear and an old-style thrust washer. I'm really making a Frankenstein's Monster engine over here, so it's not really surprising things don't want to go together exactly right. I'm going to pull the clutch basket and oil pump, then pull the crank drive gear and re-install everything without the drive gear. If I can get the clutch basket to seat far enough to put in the circlip, I'll know we've nailed down the problem. Results coming soon!
    First Rule of Aviation: Never Pass Up the Opportunity to Pee

    2004 Yamaha V-Star
    2015 Haosen Hawk
    2015 Suzuki DR560
    2016 Ural Gear Up
    1973 Honda CL450 (The Basket case)
    1974 Honda CB450

  10. #19
    Member Emerikol's Avatar
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    Ok, so here's a status update. I was able to spend a few minutes in the shop last night working through this issue, and it looks like the crankshaft gear is the culprit for all the issues. I removed the oil rotor and oil pump, and slid the clutch basket and pump off. Then I removed the crank gear and re-assembled the oil pump and clutch basket assembly without the crank gear in place. I'm still every so slightly shy of getting the inner clutch basket retaining ring to seat, but it's seriously just by a whisker now. I remember it being tight to get off during engine disassembly, and it's so close that I'm confident I'll be able to seat it by lightly tapping it into the groove with a punch and mallet. So that leaves me a couple options; I can either mill the crank gear down a little bit, or mill down the brass thrust washer a little bit. I'm actually leaning towards milling the gear down since it's a heavier chunk of material, and I want as much brass in there as possible to protect the parts that rub together. I'm still going to spend some time looking for the crank gear that goes with this crankshaft, but I'm not very optimistic. This engine came to me as two case halves, and nearly everything else in an oil-soaked cardboard box. Even the crank needed some love (and a lot of oil, assembly lube and swearing) before I was comfortable using it as a replacement for the one that detonated. So that brings me to two questions I'd like to put to the group: 1)Should I have the gear milled down and clearanced, or should I take the material off of the brass thrust washer? and 2)Is there a market for overhauling these crankshafts/rotating assemblies? I have a line on a machine shop that might be interested in working with me to press the crankshafts apart, measure and repair everything as needed, and then install new bearings and put it all back together. Is there enough of a market for these 450 mills to make that a worthwhile undertaking? Thanks again for all the help with resurrecting this bike.
    First Rule of Aviation: Never Pass Up the Opportunity to Pee

    2004 Yamaha V-Star
    2015 Haosen Hawk
    2015 Suzuki DR560
    2016 Ural Gear Up
    1973 Honda CL450 (The Basket case)
    1974 Honda CB450

  11. #20
    Super Moderator ancientdad's Avatar
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    Personally, I think it might be easier to get the gear machined but I'm not a machinist, just thinking of the part and potential ease of the process since it is larger. Plus, as long as there is enough width on the gear for proper teeth engagement - you'd have to take a lot off it for that to be an issue - there's less risk (but again, maybe the machinist would be the one to make the choice).

    I think eventually there will be more need for crankshaft rebuilding as all the good used ones are gone, but I don't think we're quite there yet - there are always used cranks and spare 5 speed engines on eBay for decent prices. I have 2 spare 5 speed engines myself, with good cranks in both (I certainly hope ). It's quite the process requiring a serious press and proper jig to keep things in alignment. And BTW, good call 12ozPBR
    Last edited by ancientdad; 12-03-2019 at 07:11 AM.
    Tom

    CL450 project reboot, street legal this time
    Budget drag bike project
    CB350K1 full patina project
    Ride along at the drag strip


    running points... because I'm too old for mysteries that begin with pushing

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