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  1. #1
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    '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    A bunch of this is ctrl-c/ctrl-v'ed from another forum, so the timing of the posts will be a tad weird. Anyhow, this project started this past fall around mid-october.

    About a year and a half ago, some friends and I picked up a '73 Honda CL350 motorcycle for cheap ($300, split four ways), and slowly working on it since. I'm really the only one interested in the bike (two of the other people have moved away, the other got himself a ninja 250), so a project it becomes. Here she is, after being majestically hauled up onto my 2nd floor balcony by two friends and I:




    Anyhow, this is my first bike, and I'm working on getting back into good shape over the winter, which will involve the usual battery of de-rusting, painting, polishing, new rubber, cables and whatnot.

    However, I'm very tired of dealing with the carbs over the past summer (as well as tank gunk), and the broken choke plate on the left cylinder. Instead of getting a new set of carbs and continue to mess with the adjustments... fuel injection may be an interesting project with potential gains in drivability, cold-start behavior and fuel economy... plus I don't think its been done before. MegaSquirt here I come... again...

    I got a set of 4 throttle bodies, injectors, fuel rail, throttle position sensor and whatnot off of ebay from an '04 CBR600 F4i. The injectors should be fine size-wise, since the cyl size for the CBR is slightly smaller, but it rev's a bit higher. Original pic:



    One of the castings is a little bit broken, but overall they're in great shape, especially for $43 w/shipping. I've since chopped down and re-welded the fuel rail so that it'll only span the one bank that I'm planning on using, drilled and tapped some holes that I'll used for a solenoid to control the idle valves and to mount one end of the fuel rail, and in general prep'ed the new throttle bodies for use on the bike. In their completed form:



    I've also just ordered the fuel pump from an F4i, since there aren't too many options out there that'll generate the higher fuel pressures for fuel injection, but won't have massively excessive flow rates. I'll prob just chop the stock mounting apart and use the pump as an inline pump mounted outside of the fuel tank so I dont need to worry about welding anything onto the tank itself. It also seems to come with a fuel level sensor, so that'll be one more bit of added functionality.



    On the signaling side, the contacts can be replaced with a toothed wheel and VR sensor or hall-effect sensor pretty easily to track engine position and speed (I have a spare sensor/wheel from the RX-7), and then use the megasquirt to control spark to the individual cylinders (Even tho the engine is an odd-fire design, I can use a 4-cyl COP mode to get the proper spark spacing, and just not connect the other two outputs)

    All of the extra power required by the fuel pump, injectors, MS and whatnot will be way too much for the stock 55W alternator. Re-wound stators would only provide 100-120W (so max of 8-10A), which will be barely enough to run the fuel injection system, but nowhere near enough to do that, the bike's lighting, and charge the battery. Soooo... time to get creative and go back to the F4i parts bin, to come back with a 310W stator, rotor and stator cover from ebay. I'll need to figure out how to mount it and align it, but I'm in a much better position to do that right now, since I have access to a UMich machine shop at the moment.
    Stator, rotor and housing:



    The last hurdle would be tuning, but with a narrow-band O2 sensor and just tuning to stoich (or close anyway, to keep temps down), it shouldnt be hard, just a longer process since I dont really want to be riding with the laptop open on the gas tank... disaster much?

    In addition, this would allow me to add a tach that actually seems to respond to the engine (the old one seems like its trying to move through peanut butter...), as well as an idle valve, no need to ever re-jet, and if i wanted to go all-out, launch control, shift lights and some other neat little functions.

    Weather permitting, I'll probably start tearing her down tomorrow to figure out how to mount the throttle bodies to the engine.

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  3. #2
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    Well, pulled the seat, tank, air filters and carbs off of the bike today, and came to the conclusion that theres no way in hell I'm going to get the throttle bodies in the position I want them in without cutting them apart. The inlet ports in the head are just spaced too far apart, and there's not enough clearance between them and a frame member to get the throttle bodies installed in a way that'll actually flow fairly well.




    Looks like I'll have to cut them apart after all, extend the fuel rail and throttle butterfly shaft, and possibly the idle actuator too. At this point I may just ignore the stock idle valve in the throttle bodies and instead just run a complete solenoid valve with a restrictor to simplify packaging.

    The bike as she sits now... mmm look at that rust... er... patina

  4. #3
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    The shop manual for the CL350 says that the maximum charging at 10k RPM is about 4 amps, and max at 5k RPM is 1.5 to 2.5 amps... if there was about 130W to play with, then I may hold off on the alternator, but with only about 55W, the stock 12AH battery isn't going to sustain it for long.

    In other news, the throttle bodies are just about finished, with only a little grinding left to do to get them usable. They fit on the bike, and the fuel injectors are lined up pretty well with the valves. There's enough flexibility in the mounts that I'll probably need to make a bracket that will attach to the frame at the battery tray mounting bolts, but the throttle cable works well. I'll be able to route a rubber hose between the two fuel rails since the feed is on one side and the fuel pressure regulator/return is on the other. As for air filters, I should just be able to take a tube, mill a ring in it to seat an o-ring, and hold it in place with a couple bits of metal to the stock airbox mounting bolts on the throttle bodies, and then mount an appropriately sized filter over the end of that.

    Now... for the pictures!














  5. #4

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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    i love what you are doing!
    82 GL500I
    70 CL450 (working on)
    74 cl450 (parts)
    82 XS650 (anyone have a cdi)

    real name is ERIC!

  6. #5
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    Mate that is just brilliant and looks soooo easy not so for some of the oldies around here. which other forum are you taking this from? The hall sensor, are you going to locate them/it in the original points housing or somewhere else? Why are you using a narrow band sensor not wide band? is due to the MegaSquirt not being programed for the wide band sensor or or or are you going to run two sensors one per pot or fit a 2-1 exhaust and balance tune (compromise)

    Not trying to be critical just understanding you thought process as I'll be doing the same to a 450/500T later in the year and like your approach

    Just a photo of where I'm at with the setup. If you look in front of the cylinder you can see the bung for the pyrometer and just in the center of the air filter the bung for the O2 sensor. I'll be running duel sensors for optimal HP.
    Rod from OZ

    If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's an electrical problem!!
    CB450 K2 (general export)
    CB450 K2 Cafe
    CL450 K2
    CL450 K3
    Honda CBR1000F
    Yamaha XJ650
    Yamaha MX80
    Yamaha TRX850

  7. #6
    Supporting Member gs1327's Avatar
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    PLEASE keep us posted on this- this is a VERY cool project- I'm interested in seeing how you get some of the details worked out here.
    Tom
    76 CB500T(sold/gone now)
    06 Kaw ZX14
    01 SV650
    Busa dragbike
    77 Yamaha XS650 street tracker
    87 Kaw EX500(pitbike/beater)
    numerous other project/parts bikes not worth mentioning

  8. #7
    Super Moderator Znabb's Avatar
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    Quote Originally Posted by toplessFC3Sman
    ... plus I don't think its been done before.
    That is as good reason as any.
    Really cool project that I will be following closely.

  9. #8
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    time for a much-delayed update... funds have been running low so things have been going slowly. It has allowed me to get a bunch of planning done though. Starting off is the work done to retrofit a CBR 600 F4i alternator (~310-350W, up from about ~55W stock) onto the end of the engine in place of the stock one.



    The rotor from the CBR F4i has the magnets along the outside, pointing inward, as opposed to the CB/CL350, which has the magnets in the center. To get this much bigger rotor to fit, I needed to machine off the mounting ears on the inside of the stator cover. Since I no longer had any way of attaching the cover or mount for the stator, i needed to drill and tap some new holes for that in what was left of the stator cover. I ended up choosing to do them on the old mounting surface in a circular pattern, using 12 evenly spaced 6-32 bolts, since half of these would not only nicely match up with the 6 previous (and thicker) mounting flanges, but i'd need more than 6 because they are not only significantly smaller than the old screws, but they'll need to react more torque from the higher output stator. You can see all the modifications to the stator cover in the picture below.



    Now, on both bikes, the one-way clutch is right underneath the rotor. The CBR's is a bit bigger though. I first tried to machine out the flange/outer bearing surface from the CBR's to be able to press the CL's fully inside of it, but it was very hardened steel, so I had to turn down the CL's outer diameter (and lose the pressed-on retaining cover for all the pins/rollers etc) so that it would press inside. The finished product is seen in the next picture, although I still need to drill/tap the CL's existing holes so I can bolt on a retaining flange on the bottom side. You need to make sure that you keep the correct side of the CL's one-way clutch down so that it'll work in the correct direction (allowing the starter to spin the engine, not the other way around).



    Moving on to the engine management side of things, I got started on the signaling for engine position. I'm replacing the ignition points with a toothed wheel and variable reluctance (VR) sensor, both from a spare crank angle sensor off of my 2nd generation RX-7. I plan on using just the one 24-tooth wheel, except grinding off one of the teeth (making it a 24-1 wheel), so that the gap will represent to the megasquirt the beginning of a new cycle. This way i'll only need one VR sensor and wheel, as opposed to the two that the CAS uses in the RX-7. The VR sensor will mount up inside the old points housing to trigger off of each of the teeth.





    In addition, i've ordered and recieved two coil-driver kits for the megasquirt, a used CBR wiring harness with the injector, TPS, alternator and voltage regulator/rectifier plugs, as well as some relays, and I got a new set of tires from my family for christmas!

    Still to do for this spring:
    Finish trigger wheel machining and mounting
    Order material for stator mounting; complete stator mount machining
    Machine tapered spacer w/keyway for rotor mounting
    Order cyl head temp sensor/connector from VW bus/porsche 914 ($20)
    Order narrowband O2 sensor and exhaust bung; weld onto exhaust
    Order megasquirt MS1/V3 kit and assemble/make wiring harness
    Order in-line fuel pump (since the CBR pump is in-tank, and would require a lot of unnecessary fabrication to make work) and fuel filter
    Order new chain and sprockets, clutch cable, handlebars, possibly control switches.
    Strip frame, swing arm etc and re-paint, inspect brakes, bearings, shocks/springs etc.
    Clean out old tank, re-seal

    Longer-term:
    Speedo/tach from a newer bike, signaled from the MS
    HID projector headlight, LED turns and tail
    Disk-brake front end swap

  10. #9
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    Gotten a little bit done, but the past week's been busy with starting a new job, so work on the bike has slowed down a little bit. Anyhow, I finished machining the tapered spacer that fits over the end of the crank shaft and properly positions the new rotor, plus fits into its taper. All these tapers seemed to be approx 5* or 5 1/2* from straight; 5* measured on the lathe wasn't quite perfect, but since I made the spacer from aluminum, it'll deform enough once its torqued down that the difference in angle won't matter. Cutting the grooves for the keys into the crank shaft and rotor was a bit of a pain, using a hack-saw for the inner one so that I could feed the blade through the center of the spacer, and a dremel for the outer one since there were no problems with clearance for the tool. I forgot to take a picture of the finished product before bolting everything onto the engine... oops!



    I also got a piece of aluminum piping online that is almost the perfect size for making the spacer for the end cap. I still need to machine it to trim down the outside bore the inside slightly, drill the 12 holes to bolt it down, and cut it to the right length, but even as a rough cut, it fits very well.



    This next pic shows that the engine, after all is complete, will only be approximately 1 - 1 1/2" wider than stock, for a 6-7X increase in alternator output!



    I also finished the machining for the cam timing wheel and sensor within the housing that used to hold the points off the end of the cam shaft. Its pretty much fully assembled now too.



    I've also been working on cleaning up bits of the engine as I go along, just to make it a little more presentable (and its a lot easier to sand/brush bits when sitting around talking than to use power tools). Now that I'm starting a new job, hopefully I'll have the $ soon to buy the megasquirt engine controller and other bits for the project/mini restoration!

  11. #10
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    Re: '73 Honda CL350... but with Fuel Injection?

    Quote Originally Posted by otr002
    Mate that is just brilliant and looks soooo easy not so for some of the oldies around here. which other forum are you taking this from? The hall sensor, are you going to locate them/it in the original points housing or somewhere else? Why are you using a narrow band sensor not wide band? is due to the MegaSquirt not being programed for the wide band sensor or or or are you going to run two sensors one per pot or fit a 2-1 exhaust and balance tune (compromise)

    Not trying to be critical just understanding you thought process as I'll be doing the same to a 450/500T later in the year and like your approach

    Just a photo of where I'm at with the setup. If you look in front of the cylinder you can see the bung for the pyrometer and just in the center of the air filter the bung for the O2 sensor. I'll be running duel sensors for optimal HP.
    Well, I had originally posted on advrider.com since a quick search for CL350 info returned a lot of results from there.

    As for the O2 sensors, I'm trying to keep this project pretty low-budget, and since the exhausts are divided, I should use 2 of them. Plus, its just a normally-aspirated engine, so running her slightly lean of stoich at low loads, up to slightly rich of stoich at full load is fine, and within the capabilities of a narrowband. Even the cheapest of widebands, the Innovate LC-1, is $200 for one, so that would add a lot of cost to the project. The megasquirt will work with either, i use the Innovate unit on my boosted RX-7, where AFRs are much more critical.

    I ended up going with a variable-reluctance sensor for the cam trigger wheel since I had a pair of spares from an old RX-7 crank angle sensor, and all of its hardware fits in the old points housing. I needed to grind a tooth off of the wheel so that the megasquirt will be able to tell a fixed location during the engine cycle by the lack of a tooth where it expects one.

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